Come off it Mr Rose. Surely you aren't that stupid?

Just because you implemented an idea that has existed on other platforms in one shape or another doesn't mean you own the idea. You know this.

This piece is a poorly-composed sour-grapes PR effort. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Rose is permantly slighted due to the refusal of Apple to buy Konfabulator.

If you have REAL rights to the Konfabulator functionality, patent it and sue.

Sheesh.

The team at Konfabulator have been planning to develop for Windows for some time. Its somewhat disingenuous to suggest that this is has been 'forced' on Konfabulator by Apple...

http://news.com.com/Mac+applets+coming+soon+to+Windows/2100-1046_3-5126248.html?tag=st.rn

They should develop an operating system, attach it to Konfabulator and sell it for $100. Really, if you don't take the time to patent a look and feel, expect it to be stolen. In design school we were told, forget it, just make the next cooler better thing and stay ahead of the curve.

The reality is that Apple will not release Tiger till 2005, so think of all the free press and sales this could give Konfabulator. If he is smart, he will befriend Apple and state that this opens the market up and legitimizes it. He will then differentiate it from Apple's. (Notice Dashboard is Expose based, so widgets do not appear alongside apps, so there is one key differentiator.) He can then release a webkit based version and give us CSS capability, etc. And, finally release Linux and Windows versions. Hello!

Konfabulator should thank Apple, and look at the big picture. Do you think SUN and MSFT aren't looking for Dashboard equivalents now? Makybe they'll pay him a couple of mil?

I'm still having trouble grasping what this product (and Apple's version) does exactly. All I'm seeing are a bunch of little Desk Accessories like you would find in the Apple menu pre-System 7.

Then they have lots of nice colors, and it runs Java, which macs already have... I don't see why you need any kind of underlying technology beyond basic mac programming tools to do these things.

But I agree that copying niche developer's stuff is wrong. If Apple gave these guys $2 per copy of Tiger, they'd probably make more then they'd ever make otherwise - and it would encourage, rather then discourage, Mac software development.

Apple should concentrate on developing new and unique ideas instead. (I've got plenty if they want some.)

I am the developer of the shareware product "A Better Finder Rename" available from publicspace.net

IMHO yesterday's Tiger demo is probably the worst blow to developer relations that Apple has ever landed. The kind of "innovation" that consists in stealing shareware author's ideas and selling them as innovation is not something that any developer will take lightly.

Dashboard = Konfabulator

I was also particularly impressed to find a host of features from my own shareware product A Better Finder Rename ripped off in "Automator".

This kind of intellectual theft is simply not acceptable and shareware authors like myself will leave the platform in their hundreds if this feature is actually released. Steve's copycats are driving honest people out of business in a way that is even too low for Bill Gates.

I ask Apple to pull this feature in its own best interest; the Macintosh without shareware is deader than dead.

I would ask everybody who feels like me to make their views known to Apple via their contact pages:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

Please support your shareware authors!

Frank Reiff

Anyone who knows me, knows that I have been 100% Mac since 1984 when I got my first Mac. I have never gone to the "darkside", for more then html testing reasons (and I did have gaming PC a couple years ago when I still had time to play games). I have recently created some pretty innovative (at least no one has come out with similar apps yet) donation-ware software (that now will never be publicly released at least until I get a linux and windows version of equal quality). I can't believe Apple of all companies (I guess RealityCheck is right and I am a lemming) is stealing ideas and calling them "innovative".

This whole situation seems ridiculous to me, I am sickened by it and now believe truly that Apple is no better then Ikea, Mcdonalds. Nike or any other large corporation who is just out to make a buck and will easily forget anyone who is between them and their buck, no matter what their contribution to the idea is.

I hate having to add all of these third party applications to do things the operating system should have done to begin with.

None of these things are new ideas!

I also think they should add the functionality that tinkertool provides too.. Somebody would be pissed about that too..

there was a third party application that you had to download in windows 95 to be able to view jpegs. It is built-in to the operating system... what about winzip? built-in to windows xp and os x. musicmatch, winamp, countless other jukeboxes... built-in.

Do you honestly think that having a calculator pop up when you hit f11 is idea theft, or worth getting bent out of shape over?

blah blah. tired, so tired of hearing about this.

Quote

fastred wrote:
The team at Konfabulator have been planning to develop for Windows for some time. Its somewhat disingenuous to suggest that this is has been 'forced' on Konfabulator by Apple...

Thanks for the note, fastred. I added that to the title not realizing that the move to Windows had already been announced. Both you and Mr. Rose (and a few others) set us straight, however, and the title has been changed accordingly.

Bryan
Editor
TMO

about one's operating system having more functionality integrated is also non-productive.

The clock on longhorn's dock looks a lot like konfabulator, too.

apple shouldn't have implemented fast user switching.

and if they ever make os x skinnable, the folks over at unsanity should get upset, because being able to change your look and appearance is definitely their idea..

algr:

But I agree that copying niche developer's stuff is wrong. If Apple gave these guys $2 per copy of Tiger, they'd probably make more then they'd ever make otherwise - and it would encourage, rather then discourage, Mac software development.

==============

So you're saying these are the ONLY guys who make anything like this for the Mac? I doubt it. Then what? You give 10 guys $2 each for each copy of Tiger? 50 guys? 100 guys?

As much as I feel for these guy's bad luck, think about being Apple. Pretty much ANY improvement they come up with is already being made by several people. So should they pay out millions of $$$ to a half dozen guys for each tiny detail they add? Or should they just throw up their hands and say, "Forget it! No more updates! All Apple users should buy 100 tiny $12 programs off the net if you want a new OS!"

Neither of those is good solutions. This really reminds me of TV shows, like Star Trek, where there are thousands of people all over the country writing their own scripts but the studio WILL NOT accept them or even read them. No matter WHAT story the studio writes it will match what a fan has already written. By not taking any scripts they can prove they didn't steal it. Apple's doing pretty much the same thing except that they can't PROVE they didn't steal it, but just like with Star Trek, it's clear they're just coming up with stuff on their own and it's all a coincidence.

I do not care if Apple rips off my products, its all part and parcel of the game.

In fact, I would rather Apple ripped it off than have to code on Windows, the Windows game is not a pleasant world and Microsoft will only too happily do it to you as well.

Expect to be competed with, this is a capitalist world. Apple is a company like any other.

You know, I think Arlo and Perry need to just shut up and code. They've got two choices: do it better than Apple, or do something else. It is good for the whole platform when the OS is supremely functional out of the box, even when that means wrapping up 3rd party tools in the OS. But you know - Apple doesn't try to kill the 3rd party market like MS. Apple leaves plenty of room for people to write 3rd party tools for the high end. Ask the folks at NetNewsWire if they're concerned about Safari RSS. They're not. As far as they can see, its going to drive sales of NetNewsWire by having Apple educated people about RSS.

Getting pissed off because someone else wrapped a Javascript engine that drove desk widgets is just dumb. And besides, if Konfabulator had the "Dashboard" functionality of only allowing widgets to appear when I pressed an fkey, I might have actually bought it. Having those damned "l33t", space wasting widgets cluttering my desk was not worth the functionality that they gave.

Ok, look, here's the deal: I don't set out to be an Apple apologist, and I certainly have no love lost for some of Apple's business activities. Heck, this may even be IN that list. However, they are a company in business to make money. Now, that can't always be accomplished by doing things that are short-sighted. Sometimes you need to cut corners, but most of the time you need to do things with the long run in mind. Whether or not they set out to steal Konfabulator's idea, and whether or not it was "right", is for the market and Konfabulator's authors to decide. The capitalist system in which we live in the USA is built to deal with exactly this sort of thing. If enough consumers think its a problem, they can vote with their pocketbooks and choose not to purchase this version of the OS, instead staying with Panther and, for an extra $25, Konfabulator. That's certainly their choice. Also, Konfabulator's authors can choose whether or not to file a lawsuit, alledging that Apple stole their idea and, effectively, has put a time limit on their business.

The other way to look at it, as another poster suggested, is that Konfabulator has been given a remarkable opportunity: Apple has brought attention to this *kind* of feature, gotten people all excited about it, and now Konfabulator's authors can (and, from the looks of their website, have) take advantage of this by saying, "hey -- you can have this feature NOW, today! No wait!" Sure, they have a time limit after which their sales will almost certainly fall into a decline, but if they market wisely, they can ramp up sales between now and then, invest that money back into their business and develop yet another product that's 4 years ahead of its time. You can't rest on your laurels forever -- eventually every product you produce either has to be retired or, at least, updated. These guys have the benefit of knowing exactly WHEN their product will run out, and now have a track record. I had never looked at Konfabulator before this, and yesterday I started using it. Now I know that these guys make a killer product, and I'll watch out for the next thing they release, likely going to get it the day it comes out... all *because* of the fact that they had a *great* idea long before Apple ever decided to put it into my favorite OS. THAT is quite a feather for Arlo Rose and Perry Clarke to have in their collective hat.

--Dave

It's just a bunch of desk accessories...nothing new in that. About the only thing new is that they use Javascript. Otherwise the concept and what each does is old hat. They can cry and bitch all they want but Apple had those before and are just now getting around to adding them to OSX the same as they added labels finally.

Steal other's ideas and call it innovation. Sounds like MS, but no it's your perfect Apple. Apple's stealing and lying, there's no way to spin your way out of this. Apple's unbridled greed of cheating Mac developers and resellers has sealed Mac's fate, the Mac will soon be joining the Betamax in technology heaven.

Look, this is nothing new. Apple has always taken the best little shareware ideas and worked them into their next OS. I'm not saying it's cool, but nobody should be surprised by this. It's tradition. That said, I always assumed they paid the little guys when they ripped them off.

Isn't it kinda ironic they did this at the developers' conference? Not exactly sending a great message..."develop great software for the Mac so we can rip you off!"

BUT, you could argue that this has been part of the Mac since day one with the desktop accessories...and, well...you'd be right.

http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Desk_Ornaments.txt&topic=Software%20Design&sortOrder=Sort%20by%20Date&detail=medium

Looks familiar, eh?

I haven't seen the actual implementation of Dashboard but to suggest that Apple "ripped off" the idea of the desktop widget from Mr. Rose is not accurate. Konfabulator itself is just a reimplementation of the venerable Control Strip which I believe made its debut way back in System 7.1. At its heyday there were hundreds of user-created Control Strip modules that did all sorts of interesting things. Just like Konfabulator does now. I believe Apple can cite prior art here.

On the other hand, with $5 billion in the bank Apple certainly could have bought out Mr. Rose in the interests of good developer relations.

It isn't so much of a rip off has it is just being able to use JavaScript.

Sure there's a simple wrapper format around it, but, to be honest, I never liked the way Konfabulator controlled .widget. I never liked the use of an additional menu in the menu bar (clutter, for me); I never liked it being on the desktop all the time (visual clutter, for me). Giving them some competition about doing it other ways is only going to strengthen the .widget format. IMO, it took Apple to get it right for what I want (dashboard)... if others want it on their desktop, then they can still by Konfabulator.

This has been going on for centuries. Hypercard ripped off from Apple and taken in a different direction than Apple intended by small developers. Windowz rips off the Mac OS. Apple rips off Windowz features. Everyone is looking for an angle they can exploit for some gainful purpose --altruistic or selfish. Building upon others ideas is the cornerstone of progress and a driving force in competition. A new and unique implementation of a new or old idea can be patented and a legal short term monopoly may be gained if the originator desires. The courts can be used if your rights have been compromised.

The point is every good idea gets replicated in many variations with various improvements. It is our tradition. The first guy on the block has an advantage in time, but in high tech, the only way to make that advantage pay in the long run is to keep innovating faster than the other guys can catch up. I have invented a few products in my life, and I have been blatantly ripped off by others after my patents ran out, without any acknowledgment as the inventor. So what! Those are the rules of the game. Life is what you make of it! Just keep swimming!

Quote

Donut wrote:

there was a third party application that you had to download in windows 95 to be able to view jpegs. It is built-in to the operating system... what about winzip? built-in to windows xp and os x. musicmatch, winamp, countless other jukeboxes... built-in.

unfortunately microsoft licensed the winzip stuff, just like they did with diskkeeper, the cd writing stuff and many other little improvements to windows. It should also be noted that the built in winzip and diskkeeper are limited in functionality. Making it so there is still a market for 3rd party developers.

Unless they are in direct competition with Microsoft, they treat their developers well, they buy out their business for a healthy sum, or make sure that the tools they do include aren't better than 3rd party offerings.

As long as Apple didn't steal anything from Konfab, they have all the right to compete. Konfab's product may in fact be a better one, and has all the right to compete with another product. Back in the System 7 days, Apple would simply buy out the product for their OS, but if Apple can figure out how to create it by themself, why shouldn't they? I've often believed Konfab would benefit from being included into the OS. Software protection has always been iffy at best. It's too bad Konfab wasn't able to secure a patent on their invention (similar to one of many Apple's look and feel claims). The widgets was such a revolutionary idea, and unfortunatly there was no legal protection, and so Apple does have the right to include a similar product in their OS.

If the Konfabulator guys can get the Windows product working to parity with their Mac offering, they have a lot to gain from Apple's act of flattery. First, Windows users will be envious of Dashboard and they can get Konfabulator, "the inspiration for Dashboard". Second, many Mac users also use Windows boxes. Having products that work the same cross-platform and having licensing terms that let users use the product on 4 or 5 computers of whatever flavor under their control makes it compelling for customers to buy so their Mac/Windows worlds work similarly. Even better if the widgets themselves are cross-platform! Apple is going to be Apple. Don't get too dependent on them either creating a market or not stepping on your toes. Otherwise you'll just get upset.

Anyway, there actually is tremendous opportunity here if you don't get too riled up. Drop me a note off-board Arlo if you'd like some more ideas. Cross-platform is how I make my software business work.

-Brad Hutchings
brad@componentx.com

The guys at Konfabulator must be the happiest guys in the world for so much publicity and a whole year to sell a program that at least I never heard of before.

They play it hard, they play it well and I hope they'll be billionaires next year who are too lazy to port it to Windows.

By the way, I'm trying the program and it's amazing how messy and useless most widgets are.

Quote

DrShakagee wrote:
and now believe truly that Apple is no better then Ikea, Mcdonalds. Nike or any other large corporation who is just out to make a buck and will easily forget anyone who is between them and their buck, no matter what their contribution to the idea is.

What made you think that Apple was different?
Seriously, you don't get to be a 4 Billion $ company (I think that was their last gross sales figure) by being nice.

People forget that the business of a corporation is to make a profit. That's all. If they make money by being nice to everyone and never stepping on toes then that's fine. If they can make more by ripping off a small developer and walking off then that's what they do. Apple is no better or worse than any other company. Their products are vastly superior to others but corporate culture is corporate culture. A leopard can't change it's spots. That's why societies have governments and court systems; to protect the small and weak from the big and greedy.

Fine rip other people off. But to make fun of ripoffs (redmond) and at the same time be a total rip off yourself, you lose my respect, and I am sure many other developers. This elitest crap is why I hate most of what apple stands for.

Dashboard is not a copy of Konfabulator.

Dashboard is the reincarnation of Desk Accessories - which were part of the Mac OS since day one.

If anything, Konfabulator is a copy of Desk Accessories.

It's great to see Apple continue to bring in Mac OS 9 features into Mac OS X. It makes the transition that much easier for old Mac OS 9 fogies.

weather station app? very cool...

without protection everyone can rip off your product..

which..

if they had applied for a patent of some kind, probably would have been denied, since applets have been around since the dark ages

Quote

Guest wrote:
weather station app? very cool...

without protection everyone can rip off your product..

which..

if they had applied for a patent of some kind, probably would have been denied, since applets have been around since the dark ages

so has double click, but that didn't stop the US patent office from granting that one.

We know that the name, Apple was photocopied from the Beatle's Apple Corps. so photocopying has been an integral part of the Apple corporate strategy since day one.

Copy, clone, milk the Mac...well that is just the way of the much beloved "Dr. Turtleneck". You copy or clone anything Apple, will Mr. Jobs he be "Dr. SnappingTurtlenecker" he snap you man, he snap you bad!

How many people never heard of Konfab before yesterday, went to the site and tried their stuff. I did - they got my $25 so I can play a bit.

Apple's updated Desktop Accessories are probably be very different than Konfab, both in how it works and they type of widgets written for it. I would not really get bent too far out of shape - just let Konfab pull in the bucks while they are in the limelight and let Apple continue with a concept they started developing in 1981.

By the way, would i recommend spending $25 for Konfab? probably not. It's cute, but oversized for me and not that fantastic.

That thing with the "Start you Photocopiers Microsoft" and in front of all those dedicated developers too!

This seems to be a case of "the kettle calling the pot black"... Arlo ripped-off a Windows product in the first place:

http://www.xpthemes.com/forums.asp?MID=19&CMID=19&AID=4472

Arlo and Greg Landweber made their current careers by stealing Apple's intellectual property, and they have the NERVE to complain? Doesn't anyone remember Kaleidoscope? This was an Apple invention that appeared in the MacOS X beta, which they ripped off and engineered into OS 9. I never understood why Apple didn't stomp on Arlo and Greg, since Themes were patented.

So one developer may have his business somewhat limited if he can't figure out how to make something better than Apple.

What about Widget makers? This will open up a whole new market for developers cranking out new widgets. Consider the difference in the number of people who have bought Konfabulator compared to the number who will eventually being using 10.4. Instead of whining, it might be an idea to shift focus to selling packages of useful widgets.

As far as ripping off, all of these guys complaining about Apple ripping them off got their original inspiration from older Apple products, Sherlock, Switcher (or even earlier Servant), Desk Accessories/Control strip. I purchase third party software when it offers somethning really useful to me, but I have to admit none of these guys doing the complaining made it in that category for me.

WWDC, a developers conference, to boot! I don’t have the words to describe how really lame, really lame. Good job Jobs!

It uses JavaScript, not Java. And it does a lot of cool stuff. I have a small window that displays the local weather over the next few days. Another window pops up when someone logs onto iChat. Others act as countdown timers and such. Download Konfabulator and try it out. You may like it.

I don't know if you remember them, but Apple used to have a framework similar to Konfabulator and you could access things within that framework from the Apple menu: Desk Accessories! In my opinion, Konfabulator's developers simply revamped the Desk Accessory idea for Mac OS X, and should not feel bad that Apple is doing the same. Once we had System 7 with its multitasking, desk accessories were just lumped in with all other applications, and the old Apple menu was expanded to include anything you wanted. The folks making Konfabulator (and now Dashboard) realized that Desk Accessories were actually quite useful because they brought common tools all into one spot that could be accessed quickly from anywhere. They could even have been described as "widgets" that you could use within the desk accessory framework, and developers could make their own desk accessories. Apple didn't complain when Konfabulator stole the Desk Accessories from them, and Konfabulator's developers shouldn't be upset now that Apple has brought Desk Accessories back into their OS after years of absence... even if they did probably get the idea to bring them back by seeing Konfabulator.