How many other devices will we see before any industrial designer understand that the qty of buttons will be a determined factor. You need the most used ones, not more not less on the device. Virgin can have the image, but this player will not be the big seller as they predict.

Feature set's not bad, except for the DRM. But ugly is a killer.

2 audio outs plus fm tuner is good. And not so expensive, apparently. Raises the question of just how big Apple's margin is and just how small Virgin's will be on these machines. The fact that it uses the PortalPlayer tech is also good news, in a way. As Apple may need to add features there's no need to make platform changes.

There's gotta be at least one other designer out there who "gets it." Doesn't there? The bar's been set. you can't compete with iPod unless you make a well-designed player. Period. That's the first thing everyone (except gear-heads and geeks) is going to look at. When people see this, they're going to dismiss it before even looking at the specs.

I do like the dual outs, though.

Also, the way Virgin MegaStore pushes their electronics is in dire need of a shake-up. Everything's in blister packs on hangers. The blank media is just piled up on a table. How can you take their cell phones/MP3 players seriously when they're so poorly presented?

Did I mention this thing's ugly?

Lame. Virgin's megastore is lame and overpriced, just like this device.

poor design.

Yugly!

The only thing this player will win is the award for the butt-ugliest player. What are they thinking? They could at least attempt to challenge Apple.

Look at Rio: they've got players that are at least interesting to look at, and has some nice features, and is designed fairly well. If Virgin cuts the price in half and paints it red, then maybe it will approach Rio's sales, maybe.

Vern Seward

Well the features are quite nice indeed. They didn't say what the battery life is though, so I wonder about that. FM tuner.. very smooth, man I wish the iPod had that, two audio outs is nice, but doesnt touch the FM tuner as long as it works well. It is really ugly, very very ugly. They definitely missed the mark there.

Anybody want to guess what drive is being put in the next batch of minis?

How many websites are having Rio, Creative, Virgin, Windows player give-aways?

The numbers for the iPod's market keep going up.

Can any other manufacturer obtain enough drives to maintain inventory of their devices, with Apple's in such demand? (Apparently so, since they probably are not selling!!)

Apple should never rest; it has to continue to innovate and push the industry and market—but right now it is just a game of one upsmanship and production cycle. The next drive may be 6GB, and so on. If it is a wannabe, then the specs are nothing to be concerned with, Apple will not only keep up, but exceed—after all, innovation is their hallmark.

That has go to be without a doubt the UGLIEST player I hae ever seen. Wah Were they thinking? If they *think* they want to challenge, at least do it with style, not UGLY!

Sorry, I think I just threw up on the page. Presenting...

The new Virgin iSoreâ„¢ - Too much of this and you'll go blind!

Virgin aren't a tech company, and they are out of their depth with this one. Ol' beardy won't be flying so high with this little venture.

its FUGLY

It's BUTT-FUGLY.

The Virgin logo looked like a red star from afar. I thought I was looking at a can of Heineken.

You people's obsession with mucking up the iPod with an FM Tuner. The reason you buy an iPod is because there's nothing good ON the radio.

And they still can't get it right.

Companies always display their MP3 player but the important thing about the iPod is the complete solution.
The whole package: iPod + iTunes + iTMS + AAC

It won't kill Ipod it cann't even harm it. an FM tuner thats old school, when will they start selling portable digital radio Turner which you can record MP3 songs from to even a 1GB FLASH MEMORY.

if they pack features into it.

my wish-list: Virgin mp3 player + PDA + Cellphone + GPS receiver + Satellite radio receiver

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Guest wrote:
if they pack features into it.

my wish-list: Virgin mp3 player + PDA + Cellphone + GPS receiver + Satellite radio receiver

Does that come with a shoulder strap?

Or something you get from the dollar store like fake cell phones for kids.

They would have to be a third to half less than the IPOD and look at least as good with more features. I think they'll be lucky to get even 2% market share even after a couple of years.

I think the virgin is good. Very good to bring in some competition. I love its sleek looks and beautiful blue back color. Its controls are easy to use and it has a good build. I think this one is a winner for virgin and soon as hell apple's goin bye bye

Please, are they serious?

They expect people to buy this?

As you may have figured out, I totally agree with the "ugly" comments.

You can put dog crap in a pretty box, and it still will be a turd. I'm so very tired of Mac fanatics talking about how pretty the Mac boxes are. Although OSX is MUCH better than any of the previous Mac systems, it is still somewhat buggy, and the software options just aren't out there for the Mac -- I don't care how pretty the box is. The ipod was a good basic idea, well packaged. But if I can get more features, more storage, etc. for less $$$ (or the same), I'm willing to get something that is maybe not as pretty. And to be honest with you, I don't see why everyone is calling this ugly. Smoother lines than the somewhat boxy ipod. The gray isn't too pretty. Maybe you could pop off the clear cover and put on your own stuff. Hey, Virgin, you can use that idea if you want. And by the way, I work in both Mac and Win environments.

Actually, a FM radio is something nice to have because the gym that I used to goto has their television muted and sound is broadcasted via 'empty' FM stations. It can also be used to listen to the news (ie. emergency news, etc).

That said, this thing is "fugly" (compound for you know what two words). One of the attractions of the iPod series is that it looks nice, the interface is extremely simple to use and get used to. Come one people, it's for the masses so you should be thinking "is it harder than a toaster to operate? If so then step back and make it even more simple!"

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Guest wrote:
I'm so very tired of Mac fanatics talking about how pretty the Mac boxes are. Although OSX is MUCH better than any of the previous Mac systems, it is still somewhat buggy, and the software options just aren't out there for the Mac --

Every OS will has bugs. every one. Name one less buggy. Come on...you can't. And don't say Linux, cause you'll be a liar.

Software options aren't there? What the hell are you running? CAD? Earth Simulations? British submarines?

Moron troll.

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Billy K wrote:
You people's obsession with mucking up the iPod with an FM Tuner. The reason you buy an iPod is because there's nothing good ON the radio.

Exactly. Now if Apple would add a built-in FM transmitter, that'd be one less thing to carry in my pocket.

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Billy K wrote:

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Guest wrote:
I'm so very tired of Mac fanatics talking about how pretty the Mac boxes are. Although OSX is MUCH better than any of the previous Mac systems, it is still somewhat buggy, and the software options just aren't out there for the Mac --

Every OS will has bugs. every one. Name one less buggy. Come on...you can't. And don't say Linux, cause you'll be a liar.

Software options aren't there? What the hell are you running? CAD? Earth Simulations? British submarines?

Moron troll.

Being able to watch movies that I download would be nice. Also, something like Irfan View for flipping through the files in a directory. I have yet to find a Mac movie viewer that can handle the files that are out there. If you have one, PLEASE let me know what it is. VLC is the closest I have found, and it's still pretty limited. Palm Desktop on the Mac is limited when compared to the Win version. (yes, I know that's Palm's fault, not Steve Jobs', but the fact remains.) Hopefully, Mozilla Firefox will soon have a Mac version (didn't last time I checked -- about a month ago). The Mozilla browser is OK for the Mac, but crashes too much. Then there's the thousands of shareware games...

Yes, the professional tools I need (PhotoShop, InDesign, Illustrator, etc.) are fine on both platforms. It's the extras -- the things that make a computer fun, that the Mac is short on.

Well chief what kind of movies are these? What format??That might help people give you a recommendation.

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Guest wrote:
...
And to be honest with you, I don't see why everyone is calling this ugly.
...

Hey man if you look at that pic at the top of this page and like what you see... well... power to ya. Different strokes for different folks.

Same story, same concept, same failure.

Cocky sales guy goes to the press to claim his product superior to the rest. Is it? Nope. Will it "erode" Apple's marketshare? Nope.

This far into the game, with the iPod being on every kids Christmas wishlist, it's hard to believe that anything like this will reshape the MP3 player market.

A product will have to be truly innovative and visually appealing to do anything to the iPod, and so far we definitely haven't seen that.

-Dan Pourhadi

About half of the .avi movies don't work on a Mac. mpg-3, DIVX, VLC pops up with an error message telling you what format it is in, but can't play it. About 10% or so of QuickTime files I grab turn out to be unusable because they're of a type that QT doesn't understand. About half of the other stuff don't work with either QT or VLC. Real (.rm) media seems to be the only thing that consistently works.

But we're getting off topic here. All I was saying initially was that if I can get more features for the same $$$ or less, I'm not overly concerned with what it looks like. And the Virgin player isn't all that ugly. And the Mac player ain't all that pretty (although the additional colors on the mini was a good idea for Mac).

Well, I'd love to stay here and be bashed by you folks, but my workday is over and I have better ways to spend my afternoon and evening. I'll check back tomorrow to see what suggestions pop up for Mac movie viewers.

And I have been really impressed with the huge step forward Mac made with OSX. I've been using Macs since the Mac Classic (a cute little thing with a 5-inch screen that was hell on the eyes and hell to work with) and I've been using Win since Win 3. The fact is that there are many more options with Win.

Currently, my .pm3 player is my Palm Zire 72. I'm not planning to give it up for either this Virgin or the iPod. As a player, it lacks quite a bit in volume level. But it does so much else that I'm willing to sacrifice loud music.

Best movie player I have found (I admittedly haven't searched under every rock) is MPlayer. Plays a lot of stuff QuickTime can't.

As for extras, I don't want to assume you haven't spent time at MacUpdate.com, but I find a LOT of cool little widget-y things and apps through shareware that (to me) round out the OSX experience.

Seems to me the shareware community is much more enthusiastic and competent in the Mac world. When there is a need, they have always filled it, in my experience.

(One last word: "Ease of Use" is the most improtant feature of all. Without it, nothing else matters.)

It may have a small edge in stats. Not enough to turn away many prospective ipod mini buyers. I do like the FM tuner, why not AM??? ipod did have a FM tuner by griffin in the works but then it just went away... I'm not sure why.
Virgins player is so FUGLY which makes it, UNCOOL,(I would accept a free one;)
92% of market for aug: ipods RULE! YES!!!

Billy K, There is TONS of mac CAD software, thats what I work with. I think Even the evil autocad is porting to the mac again

Really the critical things here is whether you have the correct codec on your Mac. Quicktime _can_ play any Quicktime movie ... if you have the correct codec .. of course.

Well options are great when they work and when you don't have to spend hours or days trying to even get to that scenario. They are also useful when they don't compromise quality and ease of use.
Having a computer/mp3 player work for you rather than against you is in my opinion the most important aspect of any device something that no alternative can match with either a Mac or an iPod. Obviouisly some people love old British bikes but I wouldn't want to rely on one for any practical purpose however. equally I also have to say that good design is a little more sophisticated than making something have curves. Or are you suggesting that Greek temples are 'rather boxy'. Don't get me wrong there is always room for people who have different ideas about what makes attractive form factors but thankfully flock wallpaper isn't for us all.

like a cheap little $4.99 calculator

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NoVaMac wrote:
Billy K, There is TONS of mac CAD software, thats what I work with. I think Even the evil autocad is porting to the mac again

I'm not surprised...just trying to figure out what software isn't available for the Mac; and I still really don't know. Every personal/professional task I can think of is covered, and then some.

Perhaps Dog Crap Guest will give us a list of what he's looking for (other than a Swiss Knife Movie Player) next time he checks in, and we can help him out.

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Guest wrote:
if they pack features into it.

my wish-list: Virgin mp3 player + PDA + Cellphone + GPS receiver + Satellite radio receiver

You forgot to mention a garage door opener, a TV/Universal remote, and a calculator.

I don't think it's that bad looking, honestly. I like the iPod better, but the Virgin player isn't horrible.

I don't like the screen on it, though. It looks too small to me.

Still looking forward to the day I can afford an iPod!

From the linked article :
“… patent-pending Virgin DJ, which in just two button … creates playlists … in ways they couldn't do before.
- Supporting open standards like WMA …
… listening to music in new ways -- examples include tracks just loaded, top 20 and "lost & found" to listen to the tracks played the least
- Support for PCs running Windows XP/2000
-Virgin … respected brands in the world, is involved in planes, trains, mobile phones, soft drinks, music, and more“

Great “innovative features“ from “ a music brand” (soft drinks, planes, trains, …) Need I say more ?

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Guest wrote:
...something like Irfan View for flipping through the files in a directory...Hopefully, Mozilla Firefox will soon have a Mac version (didn't last time I checked -- about a month ago).

GraphicConverter is "something like Irfan View," only many times better and with more features. It has been available (and continually updated) for at least a decade:

http://www.lemkesoft.de/en/graphcon.htm

And your comments about FireFox are bizarre. Get it here:

http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

BTW, FireFox has been available for the Mac since April 2003. Maybe you should stop commenting until you learn something about Macs. Sheesh...

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try that graphics browser when I get home tonight. I've been using Archer or PhotoShop's file browser, depending on what I wanted to do. I somehow must have overlooked the Mac FireFox. I blame the layout of the Mozilla website. I found the Win version with no problem, but the only Mac version I had found was the older Mozilla browser--the one that I have that crashes a lot. But poking around this morning, I found it.

And by the way, having used Macs for over a decade, I probably have learned something about them by now.

It seems like I downloaded MPlayer and deleted it after it couldn't open some of the movie files that VLC opened. I'm not certain, though. I tried 6 or 8 in one frustrating evening, and deleted them all except VLC. The last time I checked the VLC website, it said that an update was coming that would support mpg-3, but the release date was something like April 2004, I think. (I'm going by memory here; please don't burn me at the stake if I'm wrong). But at your suggestion, I'll try it (again?) and make sure.

As for shareware, the Mac shareware programmers just can't compete with the Win shareware programmers -- there's just a vastly larger number of Win programmers. Go to any category at download.com and compare the numbers. Image editing: Win 361; Mac 139. Browers: Win 117; Mac 26. Games- Arcade: Win 388; Mac 99. You could argue that this means that on the Win shareware, there is a lot more crap to have to sort through to find what you want (and I'll agree--a lot of Win shareware is crap), but you also have a much better chance of finding what you want.

And I guess that what I'm looking for in a movie player is a Swiss Knife Movie Player. One that will handle playlists and most if not all media types. Microsoft really shortchanges the Mac users with its Mac media player. On my Win machine, Win Media Player plays pretty much everything but Real Media, has a library organization tool, playlists, etc. -- everything you love about iTunes, but for your movies, too. On my Mac, I haven't yet found anything that handles most all movie formats, much less have the extra features. mpg-3 seems to be a big hangup with Mac software, and isn't an issue at all on Win.

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Guest wrote:
As for shareware, the Mac shareware programmers just can't compete with the Win shareware programmers -- there's just a vastly larger number of Win programmers. Go to any category at download.com and compare the numbers.

You said it: "a lot of Win shareware is crap."

That aside, you don't go to download.com to find Mac software. I'd suggest versiontracker or macupdate:

http://www.versiontracker.com/macosx/index.shtml
http://www.macupdate.com/

When you go to the right sources, you'll see that there is very little disparity these days in the quantity of new software being developed for Mac vs. Windows. Strange but true.

There are many reasons for the high level of current development activity for the Mac including the fact that Mac OS X is an exciting new environment, that Mac OS X's UNIX heritage attracts a lot of programmers from UNIX and Linux, that applications are easily ported from those environments, and that Apple's excellent, industrial-strength Xcode programming tools are available free with every new Mac and copy of the OS.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/developertools/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/xcode/

A couple of other things you are apparently not aware of: X11-based applications are supported directly in Mac OS X 10.3 and Mac OS X's Java support, both for runtime and programming, are up-to-date and highly regarded. Both environments are good additional sources of applications for Mac OS X. By the way, neither of those environments is available as a standard, built-in part of Windows XP. Go figure.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/java/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/x11/
http://www.apple.com/opensource/

Mac shareware programmers can more than "compete" with the shoddy legions on the Windows side, Guest. Just look around...

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Guest wrote:

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Guest wrote:
if they pack features into it.

my wish-list: Virgin mp3 player + PDA + Cellphone + GPS receiver + Satellite radio receiver

You forgot to mention a garage door opener, a TV/Universal remote, and a calculator.

Electric razor, stud finder, foot massager...

In other news, Creative's attempt at an iPod mini killer also looks like an ugly piece of crap:

http://www.theregister.com/2004/10/13/creative_zen_micro/

I'm afraid I must take issue with the statement that 'there's nothing good on the radio. There may be no good music, but mp3 news casts don't work. As an avid NPR lisner, I NEED A FM TUNER! Sure, I'd buy any player for music, but I want to be able to check up on the news with the same device. If the folks at Apple would include a built-in FM tuner on the ipod mini, I would seriously consider if instead if the virgin. But for now, this is one of the only moderately sized mp3 players with a FM tuner. Sorry apple, better luck next time. Also, who ever looks at you mp3 player anyway? I mean mine's in my pocket all the time, so why would I care what it looks like?

I don't listen to radio.

Why Satellite radio is so popular? Why so many media players has built-in radio? These questions stumble me.