In a year or so they will realize why Dell undercut Apple on price. I expect a MUCH higher rate of broken, defective, trashed, infected laptops and they will spend far more repairing them, (or trying to), than the school expected to save.

Wait till next year, when the laptops need to be reformatted for the twenty billionth time due to Spyware/Viruss. As far as I'm concerned, so long suckers!

Forgot to log in, darnit!

As I was trying to say:

Wait till next year, when the laptops need to be reformatted for the twenty billionth time due to Spyware/Viruss. As far as I'm concerned, so long suckers!

Looks like the students there aren't the only ones who need to learn a lesson.
This actually could end up being good for Apple in the long run.

Having to replace the logic boards multiple times on the same iBooks taught students and teachers a lesson that Apple's claims of superior quality was reality distortion.

It's gonna be interesting to see the results of this in a year. Good or bad, I hope they document it well.

Let's see if Dell wins the middle school bid next June, or if the school learns something this coming year and goes back to Apple.

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RealityCheck wrote:
Having to replace the logic boards multiple times on the same iBooks taught students and teachers a lesson that Apple's claims of superior quality was reality distortion.

the current 14" iBook G4 runs at a price tag of $1199 (education discount)

the dells ate therefore $70 cheaper per unit

my guess is that apple could have easily beat that price-- but it was more windoze worshipping bureaucrats who are preparing the kids for the future which is the windoze operating system

news flash-- windoze is going to look completely different in about a year and a half to two years (it is going to look even more like OS X)

TRO

"Apple computers typically are more expensive than Dells anyway."

The sad thing is that Dell is charging the school district approximately $100 MORE per laptop than Apple did in the original deal, and $250 more than Apple in this new deal. You'd at least thing think that our educators would be able to do the math themselves and figure that out.

The good news is, the Cobb County, Georgia school district approved the Apple laptop deal yesterday. Let's just hope the students their don't use them to research evil-ution! Using a Mac can be dangerous; it can encourage free thinking, for God's sake!

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jimothy wrote:
Using a Mac can be dangerous; it can encourage free thinking, for God's sake!

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randompro42 wrote:
my guess is that apple could have easily beat that price-- but it was more windoze worshipping bureaucrats who are preparing the kids for the future which is the windoze operating system

When I wrote that Dell outbid Apple by $4 million, I meant that they were $4 million *less*, not $4 million more. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

We know Apple does it better and deserves to make a profit. The district will save some money up front which can be quantified. However, the frustration factor experienced by teachers at school and home,where much of their work is performed,will not be revealed to the taxpayers. They got a good price not a good value. Tiger with it's Universal Access features could allow the district to meet government requirements without third party apps. Parental restrictions are built in.


I do wish Steve Jobs made an appearance to support field sales representatives in such high profile bids. RDF is immeasureable!

Time will tell.

Cheap is cheap.

Dell has an advantage over other vendors in their business model that is explained in a ZDNET video called "Why Dell is a Bank." (See http://news.zdnet.com/2036-2_22-5604972.html). In essence, Dell takes payment for computers (money into the bank), then just-in-time orders the components, builds the computers and ships them. The vendors of the components get paid net 30, 60, or 90 days later while the money is sitting in the bank earning interest. They make a ton of money on the float.

Obviously, they aren't going to make $4 million in float on a $17 million contract, though. They have to be going after this as a loss-leader to try to slow Apple's resurgance in the ed market, particularly in the portable arena. That's going to be the area of most dramatic growth in the future.

So Dell may be making money on the float of billing a buyer and ordering JIT parts from a supplier they don't pay for 60 days, but with interest rates so low, they are making fractions of pennies. Sure that adds up, but not compared to Dells actual profits. Even in slim margin PC manufacturing, Dell is making plenty and it isn't off 60 days interest.

As to choosing Dells over Apple's, I would imagine some of the decision was based on support personel. Clearly the school district didn't fire all their Windows techs and replace them with Apple gurus, so I am sure when these techs had to submit incidence reports, they complained how long things took as they themselves learned how to administer Apple hardware and software. School district support jobs are nice and cushy and pretty much dead end so these aren't the cream of the crop support folks and probably don't enjoy having to learn new HW/SW to support.

Flame this if you wish, it is just an opinion

Dude, you were screwed.

I have people coming out of the woodwork here asking me where is the best way to get a Mac, via the Apple store or a local vendor, or what.

Why, because their Dell's keep crapping out on them repeatedly. One guy has had to rebuild his Dell system 4 times in less than a year. This week, he decided on an iMac flat panel.

And he's a Windows programmer.

The switch program is going to work, but not because of Apple marketing. Because of Master Gates.

???? out of the 20 or 30 apples here, we haven't had any replacements. Of the 10 or so dulls all have been in the shop for some reason, software (who'd of guessed) or hardware.

As a middle school teacher in Henrico County, it is dishearterning to see this decision made. However, I have to admit that Apple could have stepped up and really listened to the complaints we've had, such as having to use AppleWorks instead of Office and the lack of loaner computers for kids whose iBooks are in for repair. If Apple had offered those two things at a competitive price, it probably would have really helped.

In the research that was collected, it was the high school constituency that wanted PCs, probably for two reasons: first, three years of painful learning by both parents and students on the concept of laptops in high school student hands; and second, ther perception that PCs are more normally used in college and business. The nearer to graduation, the more disposed to PCs.

I've been a Mac user since 1984 and this is the second time I will have gone from a Mac to a PC in the workplace--can't imagine it will be an easy transition.

I am a student at Henrico... and i hated my ibook. A lot of people who are posting on this have no idea how much stuff is limited/restricted. We can't put anything on it, and if we desperately need a program installed, we have to bring it to our tech person, and that takes forever because so many broken ibooks that take priority or there. I can't wait to get my Dell next year, and I know that all of my peers and teachers couldn't agree more. So, before you do your little biased comment about how screwed we're going to be... think of what we want, DELLS. We haven't found out what is going to happen to all of the old ibooks, but we're hoping for a bonfire to destroy those little pieces of fragile crap.

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Anonymous wrote:
We can't put anything on it, and if we desperately need a program installed, we have to bring it to our tech person...

I can't wait to get my Dell next year, and I know that all of my peers and teachers couldn't agree more.

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Guest wrote:
I am a student at Henrico... and i hated my ibook. A lot of people who are posting on this have no idea how much stuff is limited/restricted. We can't put anything on it, and if we desperately need a program installed, we have to bring it to our tech person, and that takes forever because so many broken ibooks that take priority or there. I can't wait to get my Dell next year, and I know that all of my peers and teachers couldn't agree more. So, before you do your little biased comment about how screwed we're going to be... think of what we want, DELLS. We haven't found out what is going to happen to all of the old ibooks, but we're hoping for a bonfire to destroy those little pieces of fragile crap.

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Small White Car wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
We can't put anything on it, and if we desperately need a program installed, we have to bring it to our tech person...

I can't wait to get my Dell next year, and I know that all of my peers and teachers couldn't agree more.

So...you think they're not going to restrict what you can do on the Dells?

I have no knowledge of your school system but that sounds VERY unlikely to me. Why would they suddenly drop that rule just because they're switching computers?

If the complaints above are true - no MS Office (i.e. you can't share documents with the outside world), no loaner iBooks, no software installation, etc., it sounds like Apple and Henrico conspired to doom their project to failure.

The "no loaner computer" issue is interesting - when I get my laptop repaired, I don't want or need *another* computer - I need *my* computer, which has all of my data on it! This implies that people didn't store data on their own computers, which is astounding.

If the students don't actually own their iBooks, they won't take responsibility for them - they won't take care of them, they won't invest time and effort in them, and they will be disinclined to commit to them in any way, because they know they'll lose them as soon as they graduate or as soon as the contract ends.

By limiting access to the systems, the school district sent a strong message that "you don't own this machine, don't mess with it, don't do anything with it." The whole point of personal computers, and certainly Apple's entire philosophy, is empowering individuals and encouraging creativity. If you have no control over the machine, you are not empowered - you might as well have a terminal connected to a mainframe, a "network PC" or a stack of Xserves with Apple Remote Desktop and "restricted" accounts. What you will end up with, in that case, is something that is just a bit more creative and empowering than a cash register or ATM.

[Note that OS X does provide per-user preferences, and is also designed so that programs should be drag installs, so non-admin users should be able to install software, but many programs don't work this way unfortunately. It's not hard to administer a Mac - the district should trust the students to administer their own machines!! Also, the students should own their machines, which means having admin access.]

The Dell program will be more successful than the iBook program if:

- students own the computers and can keep them after they graduate

- the computers include MS Office (which sadly is required for exchanging data with the outside world)

- students have administrator access to their computers, so they can install software and run windows update, spy sweeper, etc. (well, you can always hack into windows if you need admin access)

- Dell/Henrico provides fast repair (and loaner computers, if desired or necessary)

- they computers are well protected against viruses, and automatic windows update is turned on

60 iBooks purchased for my school: 24 needed logic board replacements in the first year. 10 the following year. 10 more this year. Now I have to eat the cost of replacement with the expiration of the warranty. I simply can't afford that, nor do I trust that the new iBooks will be any more reliable. It's too bad that Apple quality control is so poor.

Can somebody here help me find my mommie? I think I wet my pants.

You know, you are so right about the lock-down on the computer. I mean, it just pisses me off TO NO END that everytime I want to install something on the iBook I bought I have to take it to the Apple store and have them install it. Apple SUCK! Why don't they release a version of the OS that the owners of the computer can install stuff on without having to ask their permission? I mean...

What? You mean it's not that way? You mean that even the new Dells they get will be locked down so some kid who has no right to install software on a computer they DO NOT OWN? Oh. Guess my thinking and reasoning was as stupid as that kid's, huh?

I work for a school district in SC. We know that the kids are going to try and install games and music and just plain crap on the computers. They don't have to fix them when they screw them up. If you feel that strongly about it, buy your own computer. The district did not have to let you borrow their property to begin with, you know. So stop whining.

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Guest wrote:
60 iBooks purchased for my school: 24 needed logic board replacements in the first year. 10 the following year. 10 more this year. Now I have to eat the cost of replacement with the expiration of the warranty. I simply can't afford that, nor do I trust that the new iBooks will be any more reliable. It's too bad that Apple quality control is so poor.

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MonkeyT wrote:
It's gonna be interesting to see the results of this in a year. Good or bad, I hope they document it well.

student. i can easily say i m a student there too. duhz! nobody i know ever hates a mac and would like to reverse switch.

Beating the wrong horse

I don't blame Dell or Apple as they are both in the business of making money. I blame the parents and the Henrico county administration, and maybe to a lesser degree MS/Windows.

My child briefly went to Henrico school and used the iBooks My opinion is the problems came from:

1. the parents- I went to a few PTA meetings and many parents complained they weren’t compatible with there home PC’s meaning Windows. Nobody wanted to hear me when I said the “It’s the PC that isn’t compatible with the Mac’s. As the iBook and OSX would handle most PC files and that it was the PC couldn’t handle things from the Mac”. That said I am primarily a PC/Windows user.

2. Management and administration: The teachers and students used Macs but office staff etc still used PC’s. Some parents asked why office work was being done on the PC’s and everything else was being done on a Mac. I have no idea why was this was being done either but it was a valid question. It provided the ILLUSION that Mac’s are fine for kids but when you go to work in the real world you will need to use a PC. Unless there was an absolute need or a requirements issue from a governing entity I see no reason why from top to bottom everyone in the school system wasn’t using Mac’s.

I know the first year was a bit rough in regards for turn abounds for repairs (yes they were a lot of repairs). But once they got hooked up with a good service company they are now getting 48 hour turn around. As I understand it Dell said they could do 24 hour turn around though I don’t see that mentioned anywhere. My guess is that if Dell said that it must have come from the marketing department and not the tech support department. It will certainly be interesting to see if this rings true. The best they can hope for now is that the students will get fed up and install Linux on the Dells.

Fred Morton the Superintendent replaced all Macs with Gateway PCs in the previous county that he worked in. I've spoken to a lot of teachers in Henrico, and the great majority are very upset with the change to PCs. But teachers are always the last to be asked about technology needs, usually the IT departments decide, implement, and rule.

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Anonymous wrote:
Fred Morton the Superintendent replaced all Macs with Gateway PCs in the previous county that he worked in. I've spoken to a lot of teachers in Henrico, well, actually I'm lying, I don't want someone coming here from the web and see all this "FUD" so I made this up hoping to make everyone else feel good about Apple. I'm a hopeless Mac fan.

If the complaint was there was no MS Office on the machines, the district should have considered getting a license for that from Microsoft. I doubt the Dells come with Office, unless that was added in by Dell. It is not part of a standard software install.

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Guest wrote:
I am a student at Henrico... and i hated my ibook. A lot of people who are posting on this have no idea how much stuff is limited/restricted. We can't put anything on it, and if we desperately need a program installed, we have to bring it to our tech person, and that takes forever because so many broken ibooks that take priority or there. I can't wait to get my Dell next year, and I know that all of my peers and teachers couldn't agree more. So, before you do your little biased comment about how screwed we're going to be... think of what we want, DELLS. We haven't found out what is going to happen to all of the old ibooks, but we're hoping for a bonfire to destroy those little pieces of fragile crap.

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ipaqrat wrote:

Grow up, shorty. Start with this opportunity to shut up and pay attention. Mac fans don't want to hear about your failures even though we promote choice and free speech.

You may hate your iBook. Cool. I do too. You will have realized that EVERY company has more success than Apple and Apple will curse you throughout your life. Dell's hardware I brag about. I buy and deploy PILES throughout the Pentagon. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket. I work for the Pentagon...

Shame on Apple for fragility, iffy reliability and generally being bastards when you try to get something fixed.

Macs can do tasks just as good as Windows. For example, on Macs you can surf porn, pirate software, steal music or waste time responding to flame-baiting morons on discussion boards.

Yes, there are fanatics here like me. I still need to be. But any assembly with a HUMAN involved in any ANY step is going to get screwed up.Except for Jobs, let's worship him!!

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Guest wrote:
Beating the wrong horse

My child briefly went to Henrico school and used the iBooks My opinion is the problems came from:

2. Management and administration: The teachers and students used Macs but office staff etc still used PC’s. Some parents asked why office work was being done on the PC’s and everything else was being done on a Mac. I have no idea why was this was being done either but it was a valid question. It provided the ILLUSION that Mac’s are fine for kids but when you go to work in the real world you will need to use a PC. Unless there was an absolute need or a requirements issue from a governing entity I see no reason why from top to bottom everyone in the school system wasn’t using Mac’s.

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Guest wrote:


The "no loaner computer" issue is interesting - when I get my laptop repaired, I don't want or need *another* computer - I need *my* computer, which has all of my data on it! This implies that people didn't store data on their own computers, which is astounding.

If the students don't actually own their iBooks, they won't take responsibility for them - they won't take care of them, they won't invest time and effort in them, and they will be disinclined to commit to them in any way, because they know they'll lose them as soon as they graduate or as soon as the contract ends.

By limiting access to the systems, the school district sent a strong message that "you don't own this machine, don't mess with it, don't do anything with it." The whole point of personal computers, and certainly Apple's entire philosophy, is empowering individuals and encouraging creativity. If you have no control over the machine, you are not empowered - you might as well have a terminal connected to a mainframe, a "network PC" or a stack of Xserves with Apple Remote Desktop and "restricted" accounts. What you will end up with, in that case, is something that is just a bit more creative and empowering than a cash register or ATM.

[Note that OS X does provide per-user preferences, and is also designed so that programs should be drag installs, so non-admin users should be able to install software, but many programs don't work this way unfortunately. It's not hard to administer a Mac - the district should trust the students to administer their own machines!! Also, the students should own their machines, which means having admin access.]

The Dell program will be more successful than the iBook program if:

- students own the computers and can keep them after they graduate

- the computers include MS Office (which sadly is required for exchanging data with the outside world)

- students have administrator access to their computers, so they can install software and run windows update, spy sweeper, etc. (well, you can always hack into windows if you need admin access)

- Dell/Henrico provides fast repair (and loaner computers, if desired or necessary)

- they computers are well protected against viruses, and automatic windows update is turned on

I wonder about the influence of the Department of Justice finding that Microsoft was indeed a Monopoly and that they engaged in unfair business tactics. The "Penalty" was to give tens of millions of dollars woth of Software and Hardwar to schools. Seems the COURTS awarded the fox with the a last chckencoop they hadn't been able to ravage.

I've trained thousands of business users (Mac and PC) in Office over the years; they could all make a case that MS Office is a basic food group. Lot of carbs, but very nutritious. Like military MRE's.

Question is, have any of the complainers applied directly to Microsoft for grants of Office software site licenses? They should be spread-eagle on your desks to give it away as part of their Department of Justice anti-monopoly settlement.

AppleWorks doesn't hold a candle to Office.

iWork? But would be surprised if Pages will truly, completely handle a sophisticated MS Word document (TOC, Index, Foot and end notes, sections with different first/even/odd page headers and footers, etc.). Likewise Keynote with PowerPoint.

It's asanine that Apple released iWork without spreadsheet and relational database.

And don't crow about OpenOffice. It's works fine, but not as good as Office 2004. Also, It's not fair to expect School system IT departments to support X on Apple's unix. Most underpaid school system IT folks are truly not qualified.

Which gets back around to who's reponsibility it is and why hordes of pencil-neck bureaucrats seem to prefer Wintel.

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ipaqrat wrote:
Jared from Subway has a lot of carbs, but very nutritious. Like military MRE's.

Question is, have any of the complainers applied physics to Office software site licenses? They should sit sexy,spread-eagle on their desks to give it away as part of their Department of Justice anti-monopoly settlement.

I hold a candle to butt when I fart.

iWork? iDon't. But would be surprised if Pages will truly, completely handle a sophisticated computer unlike the Mac.

It's possible that Apple released iWork without testing it.

And don't crow about OpenOffice 2004 IT Edition. Also, Apple's unix is Steve Jobs' personal computer language.

Which gets back around to why I prefer Wintel.

This news came as a disappointing shock to me as well as many of you, but for crying out loud, let's call the dogs off, okay? Do yourselves a favor and read all you can find about this story - there's a lot of information out there now, and much of it direct from the Henrico board.

If you take the time to educate yourselves, you'll find that they spent a great deal of time and effort on this decision, and that it was truly a democratic one. You'll also find there were many factors involved - MS Office, screen size, "loaner" laptops for damaged ones, deposits on the laptops, etc. This is not a simple situation.

Finally, you'll also find that Apple dropped the ball in many ways. There are several reports that Apple didn't do enough "hand-holding" for a project like this. And there truly were a lot of problems with the books themselves originally (faulty motherboards, etc.). To be fair, I think a project like this is the ultimate torture test for any laptop - kids who are given something like this just don't show the care they should (and would if they bought it outright). I see this where I work.

It's true that things will likely be MUCH worse with the Dells (I speak from experience), but that's no reason to show your insecurity by flaming all who have a different opinion. Or simply a different choice. just take a deep breath and keep your eye on this one. And in the meantime, lighten up.

And go Cobb County!

There was a componant manufacturer that made tens of millions of bad capacitors. These parts were placed in computers from every computer company in the world. All of them are expericing failures based on this, even, yes---Dell.

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Realty Check wrote:
Can somebody here help me find my mommie? I think I wet my pants.

While some will say that the iBooks have an iffy reliabilty record, let's see how well the Dells hold up after one year of being opened and closed a minimum of 20 times daily. The torsion from the hinge will either loosen screws, break hinges (causing twisting, leading to cracked displays) or other nastiness. The school district may think that Dell is more reliable, but that is based on seeing units that don't get dropped or given the abuse that school students dish out on laptops.

And the school systems lock these units down for a very good reason. The last thing a school district needs is to have allegations of piracy, unethical hacking, etc done with units that are considered to be property of the school system. Then again, most companies lock down computers that their employees use, but the people who complain most about it tend to be the people who also tend to end up in the unemployment line. As for students being unable to unlock a locked down machine, it can be done very easily with a mac or a pc. All it takes is knowing how to do it. I seriously doubt that the firmware on those laptops was locked down in such a way that target disk mode and being able to boot from a cd are not possible. With 23k machines deployed, that would be more trouble than it is worth.

Well, maybe windows machines should be locked down, to prevent the installation of malware, etc.. Unfortunately, you can only run Spysweeper, for example, from admin accounts...

The irony is that the malware programs are likely to be able to take advantages of security holes to install themselves....

On a Mac at least you can drag-install many applications without admin access - but most windows programs require installers.

But I would still be inclined to say that students are much more likely to take care of systems if they own them themselves, rather than borrowing them from the school district. Of course, they're even more likely to take care of the laptops if they *purchase* them themselves....

And what about personal data? Will the district burn all of your data onto a stack of DVDs so that you don't lose your data when you graduate?

An advantage of leasing the machines, or borrowing them, is that they can be upgraded every year. But it doesn't seem like the district is planning on doing that.

I read this article and had to comment. I am a Henrico County Student. I am extremely disappointed in this decisions. Yes, I think I have a biased opinion, I work for the county/school to repair the ibooks. I also work on PC's in the real world. I see the problems that PCs have that Macs do not. It is a shame, we (school district) is going to cost more in support and training. Within hours, after the decision I recieved input from teachers. They were extremely upset, all their work, has gone to crap. From a science teacher, she had created drag-n-drop lessons in appleworks, and now will not be able to use them. Yes, Dell has claimed they have a app that will convert it. I have yet to see Word allow drag-n-drop activities. She has to re-do all of that work. They were also upset to learn that they (the teachers) will have two computers next year, their Dell and their iBook. I love my iBook. Yes, it has its share of problems. The 800 mhz machines did have problems which has been addressed by Apple. The students are also so rough on the machines. I see so-called "crashed" computers everyday from these same students. I recieved an iBook G4 at the start of the year and have had no problems. But, some G4s are having display/video problems. Very few computers can handle the load these receive. To address, another users reply. The school system does not look in upgrading over the summer because they have requested enough space, memory and expansion options to last over the next 4 years. I know a majority of the deal so if anyone wants to know more, or anything about the iBook program or the dell program email me @ sseal@crullertech.com
I would be happy to talk to anyone.

The apple iBooks break down almost every day. Probably at least a fifth of the students at all times have their laptops sent away to Apple for repairs.

Apple really wasn't such a good deal. This is in response to Geoduck's comment on how a higher rate of breakdown should be expected. I mean if it goes any higher then it is already is with the iBooks, its not worth having the laptops at all.

Hopefully the Dells will be more reliable

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Anonymous wrote:
I read this article and had to comment. I am a Mac FanBot posting as an Henrico County Student. I am Intel-extremely disappointed in this decisions.

Yes, this Mac FanBot is also posting as a worker for the county/school to repair the ibooks. PC's work better in the real world. I see the problems that Macs have that PCs do not. It is a shame, we is still using crap appleworks. Yes, Dell has claimed they have a app that will convert an iBook into a computer can handle the load these receive. The school system does not look in upgrading over the summer because Macs are not upgradeable. I've requested enough space, memory and expansion options to last over the next 4 years - too bad the iBooks don't even last that long. This Mac FanBot will be happy to lie about the deal so if anyone wants to know more, or anything about the iBook program or the dell program email me @ fanbot@worship-steve.com
I am happy to be a part of the dark side.