Hey, everyone-
I was just wondering if these models are considered the 5th Generation models?? Or are they still catergorized as 4th Gen??

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Anonymous wrote:
Hey, everyone-
I was just wondering if these models are considered the 5th Generation models?? Or are they still catergorized as 4th Gen??

Still 4th gen.

Changing hard drive sizes and prices has never been considered a generation change.

The only real difference here is more color screens, but it wasnt' considered a change when they added the first color screen, so I doubt that adding it to more of them will be a change either.

Glad to see the "just good enough" syndrome of PCs has hit the iPod line. Sheesh. No firewire? Apple penalizing its customers for using their own computers is disheartening.

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FlipFriddle wrote:
Glad to see the "just good enough" syndrome of PCs has hit the iPod line. Sheesh. No firewire? Apple penalizing its customers for using their own computers is disheartening.

Didn't the price go down? If you have $300 for an iPod, you probably have $20 for a wire or a USB2 jack (which works with the supplied USB wire)

At least online, anyway. That way you could get the cable you wanted, USB 2.0 or Firewire. It definitely amounts to a penalty for firewire users.

These are 4th gen

The generations have only changed when new features, not new capacities, have changed.

Witness:

click wheel -> scroll wheel (1 -> 2)
undockable -> dockable (2 -> 3)
B&W -> color (3 -> 4)

Though the 20GB has never been available in color, it is just a different capacity for the same 4th gen device.

And the pod casting is just a sw update.

would be nicer if you could pick one, rather than supplying both....

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FlipFriddle wrote:
Glad to see the "just good enough" syndrome of PCs has hit the iPod line. Sheesh. No firewire? Apple penalizing its customers for using their own computers is disheartening.

I don't see this as a penalty as much as technology marching on. Macs sold in the last few years all include USB 2.0. A few months ago I got a USB 2.0 PCI card for my older G4 tower for $14.95. Printers don't include cables. Many scanners don't include cables. Firewire isn't the standard that the industry has embraced for this purpose. It really isn't that big a deal. I'm actually pleased that Apple IS still including the USB cable.

5th Generation iPods are supposed to rid the world of disease, war and hunger. A color screen is nice, but not quite utopia. Therefore, these must still be 4th gen.

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Guest wrote:
Hey, everyone-
I was just wondering if these models are considered the 5th Generation models?? Or are they still catergorized as 4th Gen??

Only click-wheel and later iPods got updated software -- the scroll wheel and menu-button 'pods were excluded. Hopefully, that only means they don't get a special Podcast menu -- the podcasts themselves should still transfer just fine.

Right. A choice would be nice.

This isn't "better" technology either. Firewire is a faster choice which is why its the interface on DVcams - if I had 60GB of music to transfer, I'd like to be able to move it over the fastest way I could.

It's a moot point anyway since I can't afford a new iPod or a new Mac with USB2 right now anyway

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jfbiii wrote:
At least online, anyway. That way you could get the cable you wanted, USB 2.0 or Firewire. It definitely amounts to a penalty for firewire users.

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Guest wrote:
These are 4th gen
click wheel -> scroll wheel (1 -> 2)
undockable -> dockable (2 -> 3)
B&W -> color (3 -> 4)

Actually, the 3G to 4G transition was four bottons -> clickwheel. The original black and white U2 and 20GB iPods (among others) were also considered 4G.

Who doesn't have at least a half-dozen firewire cables lying around? If not, then buy one at MicroCenter or Comp USA for a lot less than the Apple version.

What's the problem? You're annoyed that you're not being forced to pay for an over-priced cable?

Get over it!

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Anonymous wrote:
Who doesn't have at least a half-dozen firewire cables lying around? If not, then buy one at MicroCenter or Comp USA for a lot less than the Apple version.

What's the problem? You're annoyed that you're not being forced to pay for an over-priced cable?

Get over it!

You do have to buy the cable that adapts firewire to the iPod connector. So just any firewire cable won't work.

That being said, they dropped firewire a few months ago when they dropped the prices of all the iPods. Use the savings to buy a cable and it all works out the same. I don't see any reason to complain either.

disease, war and hunger...you mean they'll rid the world of MS Windows????

(sorry...couldn't resist!)

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Billy K wrote:
5th Generation iPods are supposed to rid the world of disease, war and hunger. A color screen is nice, but not quite utopia. Therefore, these must still be 4th gen.

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Guest wrote:
Hey, everyone-
I was just wondering if these models are considered the 5th Generation models?? Or are they still catergorized as 4th Gen??

I just got a 30 gig iPod Photo a little over a week ago and I'm glad I did - 10 extra gigs for 50 extra bucks is a good deal.

the 60GB price dropped from 449 to 399, $50

for only another $50 over what you did pay you could now buy the 60G and have 3x the space of the 20

Alright - this is a bit picky. But it's happening all *too* often on TMO.

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"...further evidence that the $50 difference between the 1GB iPod shuffle and the 4GB iPod mini was to close..."

Well, "to close" is an action: as in "He decided to close the door". In this instance you're saying that the evidence points towards the idea that the price gap will close. Highly unlikely that this is what you meant seeing as you closed off the sentence with "and was hurting shuffle sales".

Instead, "too close" is what you're after. It's a description of the relative distance between two objects. As in, the price between the two objects was not far enough apart - and thus the price change reflects the desire of Apple *to* further distinguish the two items.

*Too* often, in today's journalistic pieces, we're seeing these basic ideas in English glossed over and consequently, for those for whom English is a second language, these mistakes keep getting repeated.

I read a while back on this website that the next update for the iPod Photo would have Tetris...I'm not seeing tetris on MY iPod!!!

Whaaaaaaat!!!!! Bad english on a web forum/blog/news site!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What must we do to be saved!!!!!!!!!!! help us...help us ....hel...us....h..e..l...p....u....ssss U.S!!

Lets be real, even true blue 'Apple can do no wrong' devotees have to admit that there are PLENTY of Macs out there that do NOT have USB 2.0. I believe Apple didn't start including the feature across-the-board until two years ago.

It is very lame that Steve is trying to pinch pennies on the very folks who saw Apple through the dark years. Either make two sets of boxes, Steve, one with a USB 2.0 cable and one with a FW cable, or if you're going to force folks to buy a cable, price it at or below cost, like $9.

And stop treating the Apple faithful worse than you do the PC users. Because many of the latter will be gone the second the word "iPod" stops being a household word. Dance with them that brought ya.

Price drop= $50
Firewire cable= $19

Price drop (gross savings) of $50- cost of FW cable $19= net savings of $31

Consumer STILL wins. Why include both cables? I have a TON of white USB cables sitting unused in a drawer. I for one appreciate the change.

Last week was my birthday. My lovely wife gave me a U2 iPod for beeing so nice to her last year.
I loved, but an Photo iPod its better for the family. (I can take the pics of my girls always with me an show them to the family). So she gave me permission to change it.
Since then i haven't been able to conect it to my Mac. (that exclamation mark and the folder its the only thing i see in my iPod color display)
Yesterday, give it to the service guy at the store.
And today... there is a U2 color iPod...
Cross my fingers that the guy will have some merci on me and let me change it!!

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Small White Car wrote:
You do have to buy the cable that adapts firewire to the iPod connector. So just any firewire cable won't work.

I have an idea. Let's come up with an adaptor that will let a regular Firewire cable plug into the iPod connector. Sell it for, oh let's say $21 and it'll sell like hotcakes.

You mean this?

http://www.sendstation.com/us/products/pd_fw.html

Oh man, it even costs the same as the whole cable.

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acdc1174 wrote:
Price drop= $50
Firewire cable= $19

Price drop (gross savings) of $50- cost of FW cable $19= net savings of $31

Consumer STILL wins. Why include both cables? I have a TON of white USB cables sitting unused in a drawer. I for one appreciate the change.

Sorry, but your math is skewed. There was NOT a $50 price drop. The old 30GB color iPod got REMOVED ENTIRELY from the lineup, it was not price-dropped.

What Apple actually did was give the 20GB a color screen. Which is nice, but its something they had to do anyway, given increasing competition from similar capacity players that have... yup, you guessed it, color screens.

You really need to stop being so gullible. The no FW cable thing IS indeed a rip-off, and a favoring of Windows users over Mac ones. If nothing else, Jobs could've put some FW cable-only boxes in the Apple Stores, and saved his loyal customers $19.

But I guess he just doesn't care enough about us to do that.

If you're referring to the iPod price drop that occurred months ago, that isn't a 'gift' either- thats also something Apple did in response to increasing competition.

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Anonymous wrote:

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acdc1174 wrote:
Price drop= $50
Firewire cable= $19

Price drop (gross savings) of $50- cost of FW cable $19= net savings of $31

Sorry, but your math is skewed. There was NOT a $50 price drop. The old 30GB color iPod got REMOVED ENTIRELY from the lineup, it was not price-dropped. What Apple actually did was give the 20GB a color screen.

Well see, acdc1174 is talking about the LAST time they changed iPod prices, several months ago. You know...back when they stopped including the firewire cable.

You're talking about the changes from YESTERDAY, which has nothing to do with firewire cables. The whole firewire thing happened months ago.

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Guest wrote:

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acdc1174 wrote:
Price drop= $50
Firewire cable= $19

Price drop (gross savings) of $50- cost of FW cable $19= net savings of $31

Consumer STILL wins. Why include both cables? I have a TON of white USB cables sitting unused in a drawer. I for one appreciate the change.

Sorry, but your math is skewed. There was NOT a $50 price drop. The old 30GB color iPod got REMOVED ENTIRELY from the lineup, it was not price-dropped.

What Apple actually did was give the 20GB a color screen. Which is nice, but its something they had to do anyway, given increasing competition from similar capacity players that have... yup, you guessed it, color screens.

You really need to stop being so gullible. The no FW cable thing IS indeed a rip-off, and a favoring of Windows users over Mac ones. If nothing else, Jobs could've put some FW cable-only boxes in the Apple Stores, and saved his loyal customers $19.

But I guess he just doesn't care enough about us to do that.

Well, technically the FireWire issue and the price drop issue are two seperate things. Its just that some people foolishly use one to justify the other.

As in, "Hey, Apple gave the 20GB folks a gift with the color screen, and they gave the 60GB folks a $50 price drop (which happened this week, not months ago)." But you're right in that Apple is doing that in response to competition.

The FireWire issue is a seperate one that started months ago, and Apple is just as wrong today as it was then. But don't expect any changes in Apple's apparently arrogant attitude until the competition stiffens up. Right now, Apple is walking all over any challengers, so they have some leeway to do whatever they please, fortunately or unfortunately.

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Anonymous wrote:
Well, technically the FireWire issue and the price drop issue are two seperate things. Its just that some people foolishly use one to justify the other.

I don't understand why it matters WHY they did it. The fact is, the price dropped at the same time the cable went away.

As an example: If Ford dropped the price of all their cars $1,000 and at the same time started charging the customer $500 to buy tires, doesn't the customer come out ahead? Does it matter WHY the price drops $1,000? You're still saving $500! You wouldn't think that's a good deal?

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Small White Car wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
Well, technically the FireWire issue and the price drop issue are two seperate things. Its just that some people foolishly use one to justify the other.

I don't understand why it matters WHY they did it. The fact is, the price dropped at the same time the cable went away.

As an example: If Ford dropped the price of all their cars $1,000 and at the same time started charging the customer $500 to buy tires, doesn't the customer come out ahead? Does it matter WHY the price drops $1,000? You're still saving $500! You wouldn't think that's a good deal?

It matters because the FW thing and the price drop are TWO SEPERATE ISSUES.

As in, Apple price dropped not for the customer's good, but for competitive reasons.

And as in, Apple removed the FireWire cable too early to save themselves a few bucks, and should've at least made SOME kind of compromise, such as having two iPod boxes at the Apple Stores- one with just a USB 2.0 cable, and one with just a FW cable.

To use your car analogy, what Apple has been doing would be like Ford dropping the price of their cars for $1,000, because they HAVE to, so as not to get blown out of the water by the Japanese, and then quietly charging only long-time customers $500 more in financing fees, figuring the faithful would stick with them no matter what.

The really good deals, after all, should go to the new customers you're trying to impress.

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Small White Car wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
Well, technically the FireWire issue and the price drop issue are two seperate things. Its just that some people foolishly use one to justify the other.

I don't understand much of anything. The fact is, my pants dropped at the same time I ran away from the toilet.

As an example: If I dropped pants for $1,500 and at the same time started charging my customers $500 less, why shouldn't I still come out ahead? Does it matter WHY my price is $1,000? You're still saving $500! You wouldn't think that's a good deal?

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Anonymous wrote:


It matters because the FW thing and the price drop are TWO SEPERATE ISSUES.

As in, Apple price dropped not for the customer's good, but for competitive reasons.

Well, I guess the point you're making is that you think they would have dropped the firewire cable even if they hadn't lowered the price, right? I'm not so sure about that. They may have dropped the price only to be competitive, but I think the choice to drop the cable was done AFTER that. In other words, if they hadn't dropped the price, they wouldn't have dropped the cable. So in my mind, they ARE related.

You can believe they're un-related, but I happen to think they are.

I guess we'll never really know unless you can corner an Apple exec. and ask him, huh?

I bought a 15gig iPod when the 3G came out. Paid #399 plus tax. A 10gig was $299,the 20gig was $399 and the 25gig was $499. For my extra $100 over the price of a 10 gig I received the case( $35), dock($45) and an extra 5gig of storage. The net was that I got the extra 5gig for twenty bucks, with the next 5gig step up costing $100. Going from a 10 to a 15 was a no brainer, but the 20 was not a good value to me at the time. Today I have only 12gigs worth of music on it, so it was a logical choice that I have enjoyed every day since. I have noticed that as the prices have come down the box has contained fewer features. First the case and dock went, now the FireWire cable. However, I believe that most of the buyers of iPods now have current machines which work fine w/ USB 2.0 or are denzions of the "Evil Empire." I will buy the 60gig as portable storage a well as music now that the price is down. I have the FireWire and dock, so I don't care if it comes with them or not. I feel that I am not alone in the target market that Apple is looking at.

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Small White Car wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:


It matters because the FW thing and the price drop are TWO SEPERATE ISSUES.

As in, Apple price dropped not for the customer's good, but for competitive reasons.

Well, I guess the point you're making is that you think they would have dropped the firewire cable even if they hadn't lowered the price, right? I'm not so sure about that. They may have dropped the price only to be competitive, but I think the choice to drop the cable was done AFTER that. In other words, if they hadn't dropped the price, they wouldn't have dropped the cable. So in my mind, they ARE related.

You can believe they're un-related, but I happen to think they are.

I guess we'll never really know unless you can corner an Apple exec. and ask him, huh?

Cornering an Apple exec isnt really necessary, is it? I mean, are we so naive as to think that Apple didn't make a penny-pincher choice to hit the bottom lines of its most loyal customers, figuring that they would be the most likely to put up with it?

Please don't be so gullible. Oh, and to the gentleman who made the 'drop pants' posts, grow up, you contribute nothing to the discussion with infantile stuff like that.

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Anonymous wrote:
Cornering an Apple exec isnt really necessary, is it? I mean, are we so naive as to think that Apple didn't make a penny-pincher choice to hit the bottom lines of its most loyal customers, figuring that they would be the most likely to put up with it?

Well if that's true, there must be other examples of times they've just dropped features from products without changing the price at all.

Right?

I can't seem to think of any. Am I forgetting some? I'm not an iPod expert, though...did the price stay the same when they stopped including the dock? I really don't know. Is there a site that records those kinds of changes?

I'd like to chime in.

I think its fairly obvious that Apple, did, indeed, choose to pass on the cost of maintaining Firewire-compatibility to its Mac user base. I also think it was a premature and wrong decision. Debating semantics and trying to ascribe particular motivations to Apple executives is rather pointless.

Apple made a business move (albeit a bad one, in that it alienated a portion of their customer base) pure and simple, and they got away with it. Because what are you going to do, go out and get a Zen Micro instead? Probably not- its an inferior product.

Apple, in effect, has a near-monopoly on the HD music player market. Its not a dirty biz-tactics monopoly, like what MS has in Windows or browsers, its a superior product monopoly. And as long as its in effect, Apple can do what it likes, including some bad or questionable things. This why monopolies, of any kind, are always ultimately bad for the consumer.