Look, Phil. All I want to do is have Front Row on my TV so that I can view the media from my Powermac on the Television. It doesn't have to have a hard drive. It doesn't have to run iLife. It should have Front Row (and maybe Safari) and nothing else.

I am NOT going to spend $599 on a Mac Mini just to do that unless it can replace my DVR as part of the deal.

Ok, so you're telling me it's not going to replace my DVR? Fine, that's your call. But that means you need to come out with something cheaper to get this job done. Like a Super-Airport-Express, or something.

Something that sees my wireless network, hooks to my TV with DVI or Component connections, and has Front-Row with a remote. You could sell that for almost $400 and I would pay for it. Seriously.

So stop fooling around with these "you can hook a Mac Mini up to a TV" comments and start working on something that can actually help me out wihout costing $600. I don't need all of OS X up there on the TV. And by keeping it simple I'm certain you could make it work just as well with Windows as it does with Macs. And once ANYONE can buy one, well, then you'll have another iPod on your hands.

So get to it.

Front Row should work WITH TiVo. I should be able to load shows stored on my TiVo onto my Mac mini and watch them through FrontRow. TiVo already lets you load your shows on Windows. Apple should work with them to do this on the Mac and integrate it into Front Row. Better yet, I should be able to stream right from TiVo to Front Row like the new version does using Bonjour for my iTunes and photos on other Macs.

I think it is great for TiVo that Phil took the heat off today, but I have to disagree with the idea that Apple and TiVo would work together to get TiVo in Front Row. Tivo seems to be competing with Front Row with their offerings with HME. It is rather crude, but offers photos and music (and eventually video, hopefully) I seriously doubt Apple would help TiVo if the rumors of iTMS movie downloads are true. Best thing TiVo could do is beat Apple to the finish line and release the beta for TiVo to iPod and TiVo To Go for Mac. That would definitely move boxes and probably jack the TiVo stock up like a rocket. I'd rather pay a monthly subscription (or lifetime) to TiVo and get whatever I want vice pay Apple per show/episode/movie.

"All I want to do is have Front Row on my TV so that I can view the media from my Powermac on the Television. It doesn't have to have a hard drive"

Sounds like you're looking for the elgato EyeHome. It does exactly what you describe, and until the end of the month is $149 after rebate. http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyehome

I have one and it works pretty well, only issues are that it's a little slow, it uses CPU on the computer you are sucking media from, and it doesn't have wifi so you'll have to run a cable or buy it a airport express to connect to.

And I agree, a hard drive is superfluous in a device connected to the tv for playing media.

"All I want to do is have Front Row on my TV so that I can view the media from my Powermac on the Television. It doesn't have to have a hard drive"

Sounds like you're looking for the elgato EyeHome. It does exactly what you describe, and until the end of the month is $149 after rebate. http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyehome

I have one and it works pretty well, only issues are that it's a little slow, it uses CPU on the computer you are sucking media from, and it doesn't have wifi so you'll have to run a cable or buy it a airport express to connect to.

And I agree, a hard drive is superfluous in a device connected to the tv for playing media.

Well, they've done nearly $1B of business distributing media, and whether that was just to support iPod sales or not, that's still a chunk of cash and it means that sometimes, their product decisions are going to reflect that they need to maintain positive relations with Hollywood and the record labels. Buying TiVo or burrying TiVo is only going to antogonize the content industry.

Ask yourself... Why can't you preview a protected movie purchased from the iTMS in the Finder or play it in non-Apple QuickTime players? Is that just a bug that Apple hasn't fixed in 5 months, or might it be the result of some stalling to keep the content folks on board? I think the latter, but I also think that by the end of the year, the content folks won't care, and that little issue will be fixed. Perhaps in the next couple of years, they'll see TiVo as less of a threat. And then Apple can integrate DVR features into into living room PCs without ruffling any feathers.

You'd think the analysts like Gene Munster would get that. I mean, they are about the bottom line, the stock price, the long-term viability of the company, right? Wouldn't picking a fight with content providers be imprudent right now when Apple is dominating online music and video distribution and is gearing up to offer full-length motion pictures for purchase in iTMS?

Apple doesn't allow TiVo users to listen to music bought on Itunes through the TiVo HME. If Apple wasn't trying to replace TiVo they would allow TiVo to do this.

From a UK perspective; TiVo just don't exist. They were here, but didn't do well and went away again. Though, they might be back, I've not noticed. (I think the service is available, but you can't buy the boxes)

Sky has the market here, I suspect the cable companies (well that's ntl really) might offer something similar.

I'm not sure what the benefit of TiVo is. You pay a monthly fee and you get what? From the uk website it says it connects to your sky box/freeview/cable etc so TiVo doesn't provide the programmes. Your monthly fee just to record stuff?

So, you pay for your TV license, then pay for sat or cable, then pay Tivo as well?

No?

I don't think people quite understand what a TiVo IS. The original TiVo box was a PPC unit running Linux (although they changed processors recently). Everything that runs inside a TiVo could be recompiled and run on any Mac. All you would need is a small circuit card with TV tuners to capture the signal.

But so far, TiVo hasn't cooperated with Apple at all. You can't even get their TiVo-to-go gadget for the Mac. I think they're playing hard to get.

Apple doesn't allow anyone to to listen to music bought on itunes unless it is through one of their products.

I hope he is bluffing. Or does he leave it to Jobs to dismiss a market until Apple is ready to enter it?

I suppose Schiller is correct, if speaking only about the mini, but I'd love to have an Apple DVR that would offer seamless interoperability with my Mac, instead of the compromised solution that TiVo offers.

For whatever reason (lack of resources, Apple not cooperating, TiVo not cooperating), Mac users have always been second class citizens for TiVo.

TiVo's just treading water until the general population embraces the DVR, but the problem is, they've been treading for a long time, and other fresher swimmers have jumped into the pool.

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Guest wrote:
I hope he is bluffing. Or does he leave it to Jobs to dismiss a market until Apple is ready to enter it?

No, a DVR is not really a good idea for Apple. Otherwise they'd hurt their own $2 TV show sales on iTunes.

I don't really expect a DVR from Apple. That's where my idea for a kind of "Super-Airport Express" comes from. I know they're not gonna make a DVR so that seems like the best I can hope for from them.

Thanks, other guest, for the tip about the Elgato!

...now that cable companies and satellite TV providers are offering HD cable box/DVR combos for just an extra $10 a month. There's no need to hook up an extra device to a cable box, or use an extra remote, because the DVR is integrated with the cable box and the cable company's programming guide. Really, there is no need to add the complexity and expense of Tivo to your setup anymore.

Apple has to decide which side to try to grow. Tivo has demonstrated that their business model is limited and has been done pretty well. Furthermore, as has been stated, it's being undercut by the cable companies.

What has room to grow is distribution of content. Apple is smart to take a small bit of the profit when selling music, etc. They are not threatening to content holders, but remain necessary as they are really the driving force behind this emerging market.

No Apple DVR... ever. But that doesn't mean they won't play nice with others. But again, not too nice. No Tivo in FrontRow either is my guess.

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Small White Car wrote:

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Guest wrote:
I hope he is bluffing. Or does he leave it to Jobs to dismiss a market until Apple is ready to enter it?

No, a DVR is not really a good idea for Apple. Otherwise they'd hurt their own $2 TV show sales on iTunes.

I don't really expect a DVR from Apple. That's where my idea for a kind of "Super-Airport Express" comes from. I know they're not gonna make a DVR so that seems like the best I can hope for from them.

That logical. I still wish for a DVR with Apple elegance, though.

Of course, the whole content industry would prefer that consumers receive their content in specific, tightly-controlled methods, preferably in pay-per-use increments.

Apple has done a good job of balancing the interests of the consumer and that of the content providers, but I'd hate to see the latter unduly influence how Apple designs and implements their products (which as still tools and not merely conduits for content), or limits their vision.

Look, I love my DVRs (yes, I have two), but they are a dead end. Apple is taking a better, parallel path.

A DVR captures broadcasts in real time so you can watch them elsewhen. This negates the need for "real time", for most content. A DVR lets you choose the content you want to watch, and temporariy store it to be watched later. This is how I watch 90% of the video content I consume.

Once you embrace this model, the notion of chopping the bandwidth into channels and timeslots starts to look a little silly. Every hour Comcast puts content on the wire into my home that will not get watched. The interface to find content I do want to watch is awkward, and I tend to miss a lot that would prefer to see, such as specific topics on the History and Discovery channels. Sure, I can search via a primitive UI on the DVR, but isn't something like the iTunes store a much easier way to browse a broad selection of content?

I don't think broadcast and cable are going away, but I do suspect that they will revert to what they are best at: delivering time-sensitive content in real-time, such as sporting events, breaking news, and the like. The rest of the stuff will move to a new model that serves it up better, and Apple will be happy with a (large) share of that business.

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RetiredMidn wrote:
Once you embrace this model, the notion of chopping the bandwidth into channels and timeslots starts to look a little silly.

Yes, exactly. You "get it".

I've had tivo for 6 years and stopped watching realtime TV almost completely. The very concept of tv shows linearly occuring one after the other is based around an advertisement model. You sit. You watch. They put ads inbetween your show.

While we may all be used to this format after decades, it is arbitrary, and the more people use DVRs, the more that model breaks down. Apple is staying ahead by building what TiVo said they set out originally to do in the late 1990's : vault all TV shows made and watch them on demand.

What you're saying is true. The current system is crude and highly inefficient. Given the ability to select and view only the content you want would me much more efficient.

However, a wholesale switch to this model may not benefit the consumer economically. It's similar to the argument between the current cable system and a la carte. The latter is more efficent and would appear to benefit the customer who in theory would save money by only having to pay for the channels they desire.

But the cable companies and broadcasters have a point when they say that without subsidies, the choices would narrow because some channels wouldn't be economically viable.

American Idol probably allowed Fox to keep Arrested Development on air much longer than if AD was forced to pay its own way. AD may be saved by moving to a niche pay channel, validating the a la carte model, but it's an anomaly.

The iTMS, in allowing people to cherry pick single tracks off albums, is also a much more efficient means of distribution. But look at the battle Apple's going to have to fight with the record companies to keep the pricing model low. If they lose, people won't end up paying that much less, but they will surely receive less. Buying a whole CD for a few tracks may be a ripoff, but at least for that sum, you get what you want, and a bunch of extras which could add value.

If/when the advertising model fails, you can be sure that the networks, or whoever, will try to ensure that they won't be making less money than they used to. For me, if TV shows were priced to truly reflect the costs and profit and then presented to me a price tag, I'd probably be watching a lot less TV.

I can't deny that change is coming, but I remain skeptical that we as consumers might give up more than we gain in the process.

Apple is not going to compete with DVRs. They are going to compete with television. =)

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Guest wrote:

But the cable companies and broadcasters have a point when they say that without subsidies, the choices would narrow because some channels wouldn't be economically viable.

You say all this with the assumption that certain TV shows deserve to be broadcast, and certain albums deserve to have all songs on them sold. This is false and arbitrary. Cable networks and music labels have priced into their business that assumption. it is theirs to lose, not apple's.

As I said - those who use DVRs increasingly end up watching a la carte. The shakedown for networks (and music) has already begun.

"The Office"'s TV ratings increased after it became available on itms. So, there is a lot to gain with this new content distribution method.

...what about some other type of iPOD/DVR combo device?

In typical AppleSpeak, they said that they "will not replace Tivo," BUT, Phile NEVER said that they were NOT going to come out with a DVR product.

He also said that adding recording capabilites to the Mini would make it too complicated. Too complicated for whom? The end user to use or for Apple to create in this form factor?

Just a thought.

A Video Airport Express? The masses won't pay more than a couple of hundred for that. Forget about selling $600 Minis for that, Phil.