To pull out the old arguments, dust them off, and remind people.

OS X security is not based upon a small user base. Think about that for a moment. Why would you build something and then keep it from the masses? To answer that rhetorical question for the more denser of the "guests" (aka Trolls) -- you don't.

OS X is more secure, and has been for OVER FIVE YEARS because of its *nix core. Windows can't claim that, and won't, and for crying out loud, how come it took over five years for Microsoft to *finally* get rid of DOS? Wtf is that? Lame set of priorities.

And for the record, Unix knew what a network is and how it works and how to remain secure before Windows was out of diapers. Without *nix boxes, we wouldn't have the backbone of the net we have today, plain and simple. Look up information on UUNet.

And to the guest signed as Mark - the reason soooo many businesses still to this day use MS is due to the Office suite, people's refusal to change, and the hordes of Windows Zealots who refuse to change in similar fashion. Bill Gates, when he first hit the pavement with Windows, was literally flying by the seat of his pants. He was selling licenses to a product that wasn't even fully developed. But by the time the companies that signed the agreements wised up, it was too late. They were locked in.

Microsoft is all about control. Apple is exactly the opposite. And if you ever needed a more visual representation for that, you merely have to stand Gates and Jobs side by side and you will visually see the differences in their body language, facial expressions, and hand gestures.

From the day that Bill wrote the nasty note to the Homebrew club in CA absolutely livid that something had gotten out of his control, he has been driven to control everything and everyone else.

Microsoft = we can't do it well, so we'll buy [insert company name]

Apple = we refuse to settle for someone else's ideas; we'll make our own, and they'll be useful for nearly everyone.

The comments about the games are utter bullshit. Exactly how many thousands of Solitaire do you really need on a PC to validate its usefulness?

Go ahead, World of Microsoft, bitch away - but the RDF is significantly more sinister on your side of the playing field than it is ours.

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Edison Carter wrote:
He can't just crawl into a whole and dye. He has to support and defend his products.

Yes, the original Mac interface was built on existing stuff, but it was an improvement. For all the time and money put into Vista it should have blown OSX out of the water.

Question for you folks knowledgeable about "PCs" and Vista requirements. What percentage of PCs purchased more than 6 months ago can run Vista without major hardware upgrades?

Quite a large portion i would imagine, well depends on the drivers from the manufactures for you hardware, mine can and its 5 years old now. Well graphics card is around 3 years old, 9800XT. My PC is a 3.06GHz P4, 1GB RAM, 120GB (from when I built the PC) and a 300GB HD added later with a 9800XT (256MB) graphics card.

Haha. Apple has spent millions in convincing you're cool if you own a Mac for decades. Before Microsoft, IBM was king, Apple ran Ads against IBM. In 1984 and 1985 Apple got Super Bowl ads depicting IBM as some dictatorship controlling mass amounts of people and having them fall off a conveyor belt like lemmings, and I guess Apple was the savior.

Every single ad Apple has made in the past 20 years is to show you you're not cool if you own anything different than a Mac, yet Apple's motto is think different. Makes me want to be a white silhouette and dance with an ipod like everyone else, thinking different like everyone else, haha.

Apple, Microsoft, and IBM have been working and sharing (stealing) ideas for decades. There's no one better here when it comes to innovation.

Whats with this comment page? Guests have their comment shut out? Is that supposed to be Apple'like as well, shutting out other people's opinion? Hahaha.

"The number [of exploits] will be way less because we've done some dramatic things [to improve security] in the code base. Apple hasn't done any of those things." -Gates

uh...ehem..."dramatic"? ...let's hope the NSA can help Microsoft better than the NSA can stop jets from being hijacked...


NSA Helped Microsoft Make Vista Secure

The National Security Agency worked with Microsoft so that the OS could meet Department of Defense requirements.

Robert McMillan, IDG News Service
Wednesday, January 10, 2007 08:00 AM

"The NSA has provided guidance in the past on how best to secure Microsoft's Windows XP and Windows 2000 operating systems."

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,128483-page,1-c,windows/article.html

I have friends who are still nervous about hooking up a VCR to their TVs. <wires not connected>=<anxiety> Yes, I think it's either sad, mildly amusing or both, but it's true,

> If Apple is so much better and it is so obvious that it is why don't more people use Apple computers?

They hand us Windows at work. I didn't have a choice. Many of my coworkers are closeted Mac fans,

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Guest wrote:
Putting together a PC is not hard. If you can connect your stereo to a Cassette Deck and CD player, you can put a Dell or HP machine together.

I guess you don't have any parents, or any other relatives not into computers... and once it is set up and running, the fun begins. I got tired of counting the number or relatives and friends who were confused because weird things were happening on their machines, only to find out they were spyware and virus infested.

I have been a windows user for years, and still use it for certain things, but OS X is my primary OS, I've moved my wife to it, and I've told some of my relatives I will not help them pick out and setup anymore windows machines. If they get macs, then I'm available.

...i use the word "gates" as an insult now.

"whatever, gates"

i am happy to see him nervous

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Guest wrote:
Haha, your all Apple tools. M$ blows too, but you people take the cake.

"Your" is possesive. "You're" is the contraction for "you are" which is what you would have wanted to use here. Perhaps an education would be something you could consider for yourself.

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Guest wrote:
Both companies push for prettier GUI's and all it does it take your new powerful box and reduce its capability by wasting power on the OS.

It's not often you can read something and be stupider for having done so. Congratulations.

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Security flaws? There simply aren't enough mac users to warrant the attacks for a phisher as compared to attacking the PC base.

Apparently you missed the famous Witty worm. It targeted a total vulnerable worldwide population of just 12,000 machines. Witty infected them all in just 45 minutes.

The in-use population of Macs exceeds 50 million machines. Obscurity has nothing to do with the Mac's stellar security record.

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...until very recently one had severe limitations on hard drive manufacturers, memory manufacturers, and even usb devices.

How old are you? I mean, does 1984 seem recent to you?

Since inception in 1984, Macs have accepted third-party hard drives and memory. The iMac ignited the popularity of USB-based peripherals in 1998. WTH are you talking about?

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deasys wrote:

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Guest wrote:
Both companies push for prettier GUI's and all it does it take your new powerful box and reduce its capability by wasting power on the OS.

It's not often you can read something and be stupider for having done so. Congratulations.

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Security flaws? There simply aren't enough mac users to warrant the attacks for a phisher as compared to attacking the PC base.

Apparently you missed the famous Witty worm. It targeted a total vulnerable worldwide population of just 12,000 machines. Witty infected them all in just 45 minutes.

The in-use population of Macs exceeds 50 million machines. Obscurity has nothing to do with the Mac's stellar security record.

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...until very recently one had severe limitations on hard drive manufacturers, memory manufacturers, and even usb devices.

How old are you? I mean, does 1984 seem recent to you?

Since inception in 1984, Macs have accepted third-party hard drives and memory. The iMac ignited the popularity of USB-based peripherals in 1998. WTH are you talking about?

Whats with your attitude? If I own a mac will I be able to talk to people like you do? Haha.

"Haha, your all Apple tools. M$ blows too, but you people take the cake."

And you did do well in grammar did you. It's "you're" not "your".

Must be a game player, doesn't do anything useful.

I got Vista Ultimate installed in a Parallels virtual machine on my Macbook Pro. Then I made the mistake of downloading the latest updates from Microsoft, resulting in Vista refusing to boot up. It would hang and not proceed. I had to trash the disk image and restart. So far it's been running fine, but it's really nothing more than a prettier version of XP and less compatible with other Windows apps like games.

"Dont care what u guys say about windows.Microsoft is a SOFTWARE COMPANY.Apple is a both.I dont have to buy Microsofts pc to run windows but I have to buy Apple's pc to run osx.Till i can run osx on my regular pc , i will never run osx and i bet 90% of pc users wont either."

My guess it will be closer to 100%. If people start running OSX, they will be Mac Users, not PC users.

See

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=416

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=418

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=420&tag=nl.e622

and, for an unusual sort of attack:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=15

I will not discuss on which one y better. But with less than 5% of user base of total market I don't think many virus writers are going to spend their time coding virus to the Mac OSX. Let's see when Apple have a 50% market share (if they ever get to that) how many viruses it will have. Then will talk.

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Edison Carter wrote:
&quot;Microsofts&quot; should be &quot;MicroSoft's&quot;

Hmm. You had better call up Bill G. and Steve B., because they and the rest of the company seem to think it's "Microsoft."

And Apple spells it "OS X," not "OSX."

I will not discuss on which one y better. But with less than 5% of user base of total market I don't think many virus writers are going to spend their time coding virus to the Mac OSX. Let's see when Apple have a 50% market share (if they ever get to that) how many viruses it will have. Then will talk.

Mr. Gates added that Vista does a better job of "letting you upgrade on the hardware than our competitors have done," whatever that means.

Took me a while to stop laughing...
He can't possibly have said that and kept a straight face. If anyone is calling Windows users stupid - it's Gates by expecting anyone to believe that line of BS!

Mr. Gates added that Vista does a better job of "letting you upgrade on the hardware than our competitors have done," whatever that means.

This is in reference to wide variety of hardware that Windows has always supported. For instance, if you buy and iMac, how are you supposed to upgrade your monitor to something different? Or, suppose you would like to place four 500 GB hard drives inside of it? Or, suppose I would like to include multiple video cards, one for gaming, the new ATI digital TV card for recording, and a Hauppauge dual tuner card? These things are just not possible with Apple. It's the difference between Microsoft and Apple. If you try to open your iMac to upgrade the hard drive for more space, this voids the warranty. When you buy a Dell, you can ask them to not include ANY video card, and buy one that's not even offered by the company, open up the computer and install it yourself. Your warranty is still fully in tact.

Gates on MACs sounds like Putin talking about the Litvinienko poisoning: we don't know anything about it, in any case he's a nobody amd we are bigger, so too bad.

None of these arguments, be they Putin's or Gates' makes any sense, or can be taken seriously by people who know what they are talking about, alas.

BOT KAK.
borya

First of all, that has nothing to do with Microsoft and everything to do with the hardware manufacturer. Second of all, the iMac isn't the only model Apple offers. That's like saying that you can't put 4 hard drives in a Sony Vaio laptop. It wasn't designed that way. But you can pur 4 hard drives in a Mac Pro. It was designed for that (as well as multiple video cards). And your warranty will still be fully intact.

Nice try, though.

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Guest wrote:

They hand us Windows at work. I didn't have a choice. Many of my coworkers are closeted Mac fans,

Of course they do. Windows supports more hardware than OS X, which means companies do not have to pay for the over priced hardware that Apple sells. It's simple economics that businesses follow. It would be foolish for companies to make a significant investment in Apple hardware when they can find vastly better deals from other vendors.

Um, that's a horrible argument. Your argument for the lack of expandability of Apple's desktop is to point to laptops, a totally different segment? Way to not even address the topic.

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Intruder wrote:
First of all, that has nothing to do with Microsoft and everything to do with the hardware manufacturer. Second of all, the iMac isn't the only model Apple offers. That's like saying that you can't put 4 hard drives in a Sony Vaio laptop. It wasn't designed that way. But you can pur 4 hard drives in a Mac Pro. It was designed for that (as well as multiple video cards). And your warranty will still be fully intact.

Nice try, though.

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Guest wrote:

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Edison Carter wrote:
Question for you folks knowledgeable about &amp;quot;PCs&amp;quot; and Vista requirements. What percentage of PCs purchased more than 6 months ago can run Vista without major hardware upgrades?

Quite a large portion i would imagine, well depends on the drivers from the manufactures for you hardware, mine can and its 5 years old now. Well graphics card is around 3 years old, 9800XT. My PC is a 3.06GHz P4, 1GB RAM, 120GB (from when I built the PC) and a 300GB HD added later with a 9800XT (256MB) graphics card.

First off a minor quibble. The 3.06GHz P4 wasn't introduced until November 2002 so your PC can't be much more than 4 years old, but that's nothing compared with the simple fact that you and I, people who have dedicated video cards in machines we either hand built or specified the individual parts for and then paid someone else to actually assemble, are a tiny fraction of the overall computer market. HP sells more systems per day than all the white box places in North America put together do in a week.

Let's also admit that if your computer was put together in 2002 you paid top dollar for the fastest CPU available at the time. The average selling price of a PC wouldn't buy a decent motherboard, CPU and case by mail order. To achieve such lows while still including RAM, HD, opt. drive, KB, mouse and, most of all, a licensed version of Windows, the important hardware has to be complete crap and no faster than a hand built box from years ago.

That leads to the inescapable conclusion that far and away the vast majority of PCs in use today can't handle anything more than the most basic version of Vista.

Bravo to the Romanian president for finally admitting what most informed people already knew, that Windows has a 95% market share because of rampant piracy. Now that they've got most people by the short and curlies they've decided that pissing off legitimate customers with activation is a good idea. Vista has taken this way too far by tying a retail OS to a specific collection of hardware. No thanks Mr. Gates.

Oh and we all know the "get a Mac" commercials distort the truth, some more than others, but their purpose is to get people to realize that the company that made their iPod also makes computers. To get mad about it shows the maturity of a grade school bully.

http://www.macobserver.com/editorial/2007/01/18.1.shtml?ppp=50&t=51102&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50&sid=e25131230500e0213171ecc9b593fe8c

See this thread where he attacks someone else for being a fanatic, calling an attack on a Windows Mobile device a virus, when it's not. Once he is shown to be wrong, he just shuts up. I think the world would be better off if he took that shut up approach from the start.

Facts don't matter to him, and once they are clearly shown the light of day, he will have nothing to say. IGNORE INTRUDER'S CONTINUOUS STREAM OF FUD.

You guys are all Macs zealots.

Go and die in a hole.

You cant even upgrade a Mac let alone play any good games on it!

I have a billion complaints about Windows and all the issues it may have; however, I'm not blinded by the need to pick on the giant. The cockroaches comment above is cute, but who in the hell depends on DOS anymore? (Quote Dated Nov of 1991)

How much hunting did you have to do to find that 16 year old piece of drivel?

Simple facts:

Bill Gates is a person.
People have emotions.
Emotions are tied to the things we value.
Billy boy got emotional.
Who cares?

Back to the "picking on the giant concept."
Like it or not, an MS product is* on 90 percent of the machines in the world. So, guess who gets more attention when it comes to hacking and exploits. Big surp! It's MS.

Stop dogging a guy for getting ticked off at a bunch of illogical babble and pretty ads that make his company out to be a fat bald guy with social problems.

If anything, Apple has* social problems. It’s the pretty model chick with social issues; nonconformists, and very particular about her looks. She doesn't bring much to the table, but boy can she ever specialize in those areas… if you know what I mean! Shoot, with enough urging you can make her do stuff only not-so-hot chicks are willing to do.

MS is* the not-so-hot chick that gives people all they want, but can't catch a break because she's chunky. Everyone who sees her pokes and prods her just because she's so damn big. Secretly, a lot of people depend on her because she's so giving and more than willing to please.

But, of course, people would rather be seen in public with the pretty model known as Apple. To each their own.

Give Billy a freaking break. He's just agitated with people poking fun at his chunky kid.

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Anonymous wrote:
Um, that's a horrible argument. Your argument for the lack of expandability of Apple's desktop is to point to laptops, a totally different segment? Way to not even address the topic.

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Intruder wrote:
First of all, that has nothing to do with Microsoft and everything to do with the hardware manufacturer. Second of all, the iMac isn't the only model Apple offers. That's like saying that you can't put 4 hard drives in a Sony Vaio laptop. It wasn't designed that way. But you can pur 4 hard drives in a Mac Pro. It was designed for that (as well as multiple video cards). And your warranty will still be fully intact.

Nice try, though.

Sorry you couldn't follow a simple analogy. I thought I was dealing with somebody that could.

You picked one model that can't be upgraded. Please demonstrate to me how you can take a Sony VAIO VGC-V520G and upgrade the graphics card and put 4 500GB hard drives in it. You can't, because it wasn't designed that way. That is the same thing as picking the iMac and then making the generalization that you can't upgrade Macs. It simply isn't true.

Now, change the subject again.

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Anonymous wrote:
http://www.macobserver.com/editorial/2007/01/18.1.shtml?ppp=50&t=51102&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50&sid=e25131230500e0213171ecc9b593fe8c

See this thread where he attacks someone else for being a fanatic, calling an attack on a Windows Mobile device a virus, when it's not. Once he is shown to be wrong, he just shuts up. I think the world would be better off if he took that shut up approach from the start.

Facts don't matter to him, and once they are clearly shown the light of day, he will have nothing to say. IGNORE INTRUDER'S CONTINUOUS STREAM OF FUD.

Sounds like someone needs a hug.

Several SECURITY SOURCES called the Mobile attack a virus, not me. But keep lying about it. I have not been shown to be wrong, someone disagrees with me, which is their right. However, they are also disagreeing with other security sites and Windows Mobile fansites. But I have determined that it is pointless to argue with windows trolls, of which you are apparenly one.

Keep up the ad hominem attacks, though. They really help your case.

Now post something else attacking me. Feel free.

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Guest wrote:

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Guest wrote:

They hand us Windows at work. I didn't have a choice. Many of my coworkers are closeted Mac fans,

Of course they do. Windows supports more hardware than OS X, which means companies do not have to pay for the over priced hardware that Apple sells. It's simple economics that businesses follow. It would be foolish for companies to make a significant investment in Apple hardware when they can find vastly better deals from other vendors.

Where I work, admittedly a Mac friendly place, we've stopped buying PCs altogether because an Intel based Mac can run OS X, Windows and Linux and BSD based distros. One box, any software we want. That's good value.

As an exercise I tried configuring a Core 2 Duo based PC at my local white box retailer and was surprised how quickly the price got up near the iMac. Of course I wound up with a box with far better expansion capabilities, something I wish Apple would address, but ultimately the Apple machine didn't look expensive.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/29/xp-vs-vista

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

When the facts don't support your case, go ahead and ignore them and call someone a troll. Please, understand the definition of a virus, it requires the ability to self-propagate. This backdoor cannot do that. It requires a user take action in order to open the backdoor, and then it only affects that one device, it cannot spread to any other devices. Please learn the definition of the terms you wish to use. Yes, sites with names like virus watch will indeed cover backdoors, as they are similar to viruses, and will perhaps incorrectly call that backdoor a virus. But as is evidenced by this post, facts do not matter to you. The very link you used to show it was an active virus sources NUMEROUS sites which clearly go into the details (rather than glossing over them with conversational language, something you are still failing to grasp) and those details clearly show it not to be a virus. This is the common problem with Mac users, a lack of understanding in the security space.

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Intruder wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
http://www.macobserver.com/editorial/2007/01/18.1.shtml?ppp=50&amp;t=51102&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;start=50&amp;sid=e25131230500e0213171ecc9b593fe8c

See this thread where he attacks someone else for being a fanatic, calling an attack on a Windows Mobile device a virus, when it's not. Once he is shown to be wrong, he just shuts up. I think the world would be better off if he took that shut up approach from the start.

Facts don't matter to him, and once they are clearly shown the light of day, he will have nothing to say. IGNORE INTRUDER'S CONTINUOUS STREAM OF FUD.

Sounds like someone needs a hug.

Several SECURITY SOURCES called the Mobile attack a virus, not me. But keep lying about it. I have not been shown to be wrong, someone disagrees with me, which is their right. However, they are also disagreeing with other security sites and Windows Mobile fansites. But I have determined that it is pointless to argue with windows trolls, of which you are apparenly one.

Keep up the ad hominem attacks, though. They really help your case.

Now post something else attacking me. Feel free.

http://www.viruslist.com/en/viruslist.html?id=1984055?
http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/venc/data/backdoor.brador.a.html
http://www.f-secure.com/v-descs/brador.shtml
http://www3.ca.com/threatinfo/virusinfo/virus.aspx?id=39835

These are some of the most respected security sites in the industry.

This is most certainly the exception. Core 2 Duo is overkill for most business users. They are not gaming, they are not editing videos. The hardware is still more expensive (even if it doesn't look as expensive) and the only thing you gain is the ability to run Mac OS X since all those other systems can be run on cheaper hardware. And, as you point out, the expansion capabilities of a non-Apple machine is far greater.

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Bregalad wrote:

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Guest wrote:

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Guest wrote:

They hand us Windows at work. I didn't have a choice. Many of my coworkers are closeted Mac fans,

Of course they do. Windows supports more hardware than OS X, which means companies do not have to pay for the over priced hardware that Apple sells. It's simple economics that businesses follow. It would be foolish for companies to make a significant investment in Apple hardware when they can find vastly better deals from other vendors.

Where I work, admittedly a Mac friendly place, we've stopped buying PCs altogether because an Intel based Mac can run OS X, Windows and Linux and BSD based distros. One box, any software we want. That's good value.

As an exercise I tried configuring a Core 2 Duo based PC at my local white box retailer and was surprised how quickly the price got up near the iMac. Of course I wound up with a box with far better expansion capabilities, something I wish Apple would address, but ultimately the Apple machine didn't look expensive.

While I truly believe that Mac is superior (I use both Mac & PC everyday, and have come to hate my PC), the real problem for MS is the coolness factor. Macs are cool. PC's are boring. Apple's marketing team knows this and takes full advantage. MS (ie. Bill Gates) has no response other than "Nuh uh."

Neither platform is perfect, but right now, Apple has a slightly better product, more innovation, and a better image. If the consumer computer revolution started today, Apple would win. But it started 10+ years ago when MS had the better product. Apple may never recover from the days of Copland.

Does anyone really think that if Macs were that easy to crack that BillyBoy Gates would not have a team developing proof of concept exploits and showing that to the world. Does anyone reall think that they have not tried to break Macs or other 'nix machines ? I will bet they have tried and that they have failed to make a dent. Dont get me wrong I dont think Macs are impenetrable but "every day of every month"; BG is in some place other than reality

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boric*acid wrote:
What kind of crack is this guy smoking? Unbelievable. I am actually at a loss for words. By all means, Billy, bring on the public disclosure of your innovation. I can't help but notice that all of your enhancements and ideas always come on the heels of an Apple announcement. I wonder how many of Leopard's features you would have 'innovated' into Vista if Steve had disclosed more of them in his keynote? Sad, so very sad.

Apple has copied features off Microsoft as well. Time machine is more or less a feature that has been in development at MS for a long time for instance. Is desktop search a rip off of Apple? or is it of Google? or is it just bundling of the MS desktop search? I could search for files on my win 95 machine is desktop search or just a better way to do it?

Apple made there OS cute with glass effect, guess that idea is taken. Probably shouldn't do it. Lol. They both take the best ideas and use them. Its no big deal. I like that Apple exists, they have some good innovation, but so does every company. What Apple is good at is public image stuff. I can't tell you how sick I get over the elitist attitude of some Apple users. BSD is good...

But what I find most ironic are the open source types that love Apple. Apple is the most closed company of all. Secretive and they attempt to lock everything... Its funny few people complain about it like they do about MS. I don't see one as better than the other.

So giving corporate users the option of not forcing people to learn something new is bad? Perhaps you Apple zealots will one day learn its not what things look like but what they can do.

Let me know when major engineering software packages run on OS X.

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Bregalad wrote:

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Guest wrote:

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Guest wrote:

They hand us Windows at work. I didn't have a choice. Many of my coworkers are closeted Mac fans,

Of course they do. Windows supports more hardware than OS X, which means companies do not have to pay for the over priced hardware that Apple sells. It's simple economics that businesses follow. It would be foolish for companies to make a significant investment in Apple hardware when they can find vastly better deals from other vendors.

Where I work, admittedly a Mac friendly place, we've stopped buying PCs altogether because an Intel based Mac can run OS X, Windows and Linux and BSD based distros. One box, any software we want. That's good value.

As an exercise I tried configuring a Core 2 Duo based PC at my local white box retailer and was surprised how quickly the price got up near the iMac. Of course I wound up with a box with far better expansion capabilities, something I wish Apple would address, but ultimately the Apple machine didn't look expensive.

I am admittedly a PC user have been mainly because I game on my pc alot. I actually really like Macs but thier price for what you get is shallow. If, like me, you can just build your pc yourself than the price difference grows even more. The only way Id ever go Mac is if I could 1. game on it 2. It could match up in price to a pc, and 3. I could expand on the hardware easily (not just a hard drive here or there but I mean EVERY part and with intel stuff working that might just happen).

simple fact of the matter is Apple has other issues to adress than just security. The whole argument is moot cause it can be argued either way with the whole, "mac has a smaller segment .. ( a REALLY SMALL segment)." I am not going to say which argument wins cause they both have thier merrits.

With the intel stuff being able to run mac and windows I'd almost be tempted to dual boot... but its just not honestly worth the effort because I dont think EITHER OS is that much better than the other, one just plays games ALOT better, and has more software support, and has more driver support, and has more hardware vendor support ....

Well then, allow me to break out my red grease pencil:

"there wasn't two" should be "there weren't two".

"I gotta run, I have a poster to design" should read "I have to run because I have a poster to design." (Note period.)

If you're going to be obnoxious enough to correct someone else's online writing, at least make sure that you don't commit the same type of errors. Because it will make you look really stupid if you do, as you have just shown.

Although I am a longtime Mac user, this is what drives me absolutely batshit about vocal Mac users online: they often make the rest of us look as stupid as they are. I feel the Mac is the best computer for me. That doesn't mean it's objectively better or worse than any other platform, or that it's the best for anyone else, just that it's the best for me. It also doesn't mean it's free of any of the issues that bedevil other platforms.

It is interesting that Gates feels he has to directly acknowledge the Mac - this is a significant change. Previously, Gates/Microsoft always seemed to take the approach of "They're cute, but not worth taking seriously as a competitor". Addressing the Mac and its culture directly seems to imply that it now is time for Microsoft to take them seriously as a competitor. And I also think that it's important to keep in mind that Apple and Microsoft don't respond to what the public sees today: they respond to where they see themselves and their competition in 3-5 years. Clearly, Microsoft sees Apple as a direct competitor to its plans to move into the home.

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Guest wrote:
Does anyone really think that if Macs were that easy to crack that BillyBoy Gates would not have a team developing proof of concept exploits and showing that to the world. Does anyone reall think that they have not tried to break Macs or other 'nix machines ? I will bet they have tried and that they have failed to make a dent. Dont get me wrong I dont think Macs are impenetrable but &quot;every day of every month&quot;; BG is in some place other than reality

Seriously? You really believe that? Not a chance. If they tried to do that, it would get and at the very best be the worst PR ever, more than likely it would leave to extremely costly litigation, and possibly even findings against Microsoft. But that's a nice paranoid thought.

I think that was Gates' point. They're cute, look up the facts and stop bugging me, they arne't as secure as their image, and their marketing is and always has been juvinile popularity contests attacking the other companies in the computer industry that far surpass the offerings of Apple. This is a blatently obvious inferiority complex on the part of Apple. Just look at their ads for the iPod, it's only about the iPod. Because they have the market shrae and are succeeding there. But their other products (even before Microsoft was the dominant player) have been inferior and they have to run attack ads because of that fact. It's the same reason why Microsoft, IBM, Dell, and others don't bother addressing Apple in their ads, they don't need to because it's just giving attention to the runner at the back of the pack. Same reason Apple's iPod ads don't mentoin the Zune, iRiver or Zen Vision products. This was just Bill getting sick of being asked about the slow runner in the back of the pack.

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Montresor wrote:
Well then, allow me to break out my red grease pencil:

&quot;there wasn't two&quot; should be &quot;there weren't two&quot;.

&quot;I gotta run, I have a poster to design&quot; should read &quot;I have to run because I have a poster to design.&quot; (Note period.)

If you're going to be obnoxious enough to correct someone else's online writing, at least make sure that you don't commit the same type of errors. Because it will make you look really stupid if you do, as you have just shown.

Although I am a longtime Mac user, this is what drives me absolutely batshit about vocal Mac users online: they often make the rest of us look as stupid as they are. I feel the Mac is the best computer for me. That doesn't mean it's objectively better or worse than any other platform, or that it's the best for anyone else, just that it's the best for me. It also doesn't mean it's free of any of the issues that bedevil other platforms.

It is interesting that Gates feels he has to directly acknowledge the Mac - this is a significant change. Previously, Gates/Microsoft always seemed to take the approach of &quot;They're cute, but not worth taking seriously as a competitor&quot;. Addressing the Mac and its culture directly seems to imply that it now is time for Microsoft to take them seriously as a competitor. And I also think that it's important to keep in mind that Apple and Microsoft don't respond to what the public sees today: they respond to where they see themselves and their competition in 3-5 years. Clearly, Microsoft sees Apple as a direct competitor to its plans to move into the home.

Re millions sold - its called corporate purchases......even they will be asking questions when they see what its going to cost to upgrade.

"Skate to where the puck is going to be, not to where it is." With Vista, M$oft skated to where the puck was five years ago! Duh!

Gates and company are so last century. The lies just aren't going to work this time around.

This is such a worn out topic. If 90 people have Windows and 10 people have OSX, were do you think you will see more viruses? If ten percent of both operating systems get viruses, then there are 9 Windows computers with viruses and 1 Mac with a virus. Just because we hear about vastly more Windows users with viruses doesn't mean Macs are more secure. No one can say which is more secure until market share is split evenly.

Not to mention, 100% of viruses are caused by user error. The person downloaded and executed something they shouldn't have, probably from a file sharing network, porn site, or suspicious e-mail. My friends and I never get viruses on Windows, and I normally don't download the latest security updates.

Just my 2 cents.

Oh by the way, free anti-virus programs like AVG and Anti-Vir work just as well as ones you pay for. In my opinion, no one should ever be paying for virus removal.

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Anonymous wrote:
blah, blah, blah, Intruder, blah, blah, blah. Whine, whine, whine

Of course you didn't happen to make note that Intruder also said in his posts that Windows Mobile has been, in his words, "fairly bulletproof" for an OS (in other words, since you are too dense and argumentative to catch it, he agreed that the OS is good). But you just want to argue semantics (which all trolls latch onto). So now you look around for his posts and try to make it seem like he is lying. The difference is that he has credibility here as a long standing member. You have less than none, since you are obviously a troll. Facts don't matter to you. Discussion doesn't matter to you. Just keep playing the fool that you are.

Or better yet, go away. We don't want to hear it from you.

Mac OS X & Microsoft Windows Aren't Competitors

This is a simple fact that many seem to be missing in this discussion. Windows doesn't compete with OS X. The non-competition between the two operating systems is even more real now that Apple hardware is capable of running Windows. Even when consumers are buying Apple computers, there are some who are also going to go out and buy Microsoft Windows. Apple knows this too, however they must compare OS X to Windows and highlight its benefits because it's the main reason to pay the price premium on Apple's hardware. If Apple wished for Mac OS X to enter into direct competition with Microsoft Windows, they would not only sell it with Apple computers, they would offer it as a stand-alone software package that users could install on their Sony, Toshiba, Dell, IBM, and homebuilt computers. This is not the case. Apple is at its core a hardware company. Microsoft is at its core a software company. Windows, Office and Server licenses make up the the vast majority of Microsoft's revenue. If you listen to Bill speak, other than this one interview, you see that he doesn't consider Apple to be a direct competitor because they are in a different segment of the tech sector, and Apple's sales can drive Microsoft's sales to an extent. Who he does consider to be their primary competition is Google, which is a software company. There are some differences, but Google resembles Microsoft much more than Apple does. This was just an outburst due to attrition and irritation, it does not signify any strategic thinking or moves, especially considering that Bill no longer runs the company and is going to stop working at Microsoft on a day-to-day basis next year.

Oh please. It doesn't matter what he thinks of the OS. Sure, it's a solid OS, but to spread lies about a backdoor being a virus is pure FUD. It IS lying when you repeatedly call a backdoor a virus, and to think it's just semantics is ignorant. A backdoor, for one is very benign compared a threat that can infect other machines. A backdoor is limited to just one computer or device, where as a virus will spread. It's a HUGE difference, one that Apple fans will be sure to point out when discussing viruses and other threats that affect Mac OS X. One that Intruder himself will care about in that case. Intruder wants to present false information in order to defend Apple and attack M$ (even if he veils it a praise saying it's over all solid). Do the facts matter? I hope they do, I hope you clicked those links and read about the Brador backdoor. If facts matter, you shouldn't be defending a guy who repeatedly calls Brador a virus, even if his OPINION is that Windows Mobile is a good product.

PS - posting a lot on a mac fan board does not give credibility, especially when you continue to promote an idea that flies in the face of the truth.

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Guest wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
blah, blah, blah, Intruder, blah, blah, blah. Whine, whine, whine

Of course you didn't happen to make note that Intruder also said in his posts that Windows Mobile has been, in his words, &quot;fairly bulletproof&quot; for an OS (in other words, since you are too dense and argumentative to catch it, he agreed that the OS is good). But you just want to argue semantics (which all trolls latch onto). So now you look around for his posts and try to make it seem like he is lying. The difference is that he has credibility here as a long standing member. You have less than none, since you are obviously a troll. Facts don't matter to you. Discussion doesn't matter to you. Just keep playing the fool that you are.

Or better yet, go away. We don't want to hear it from you.

You don't want to hear it from anyone. You don't care about the facts, and it's clear from your post you don't care if Intruder continues to spread lies.

BIll is that the same Jim Allchin who told you and Ballamer in an email addressed to you two that Longhorn (now called Vista) is a pig, that Microsoft lost its way, that used Apple's OSX and iLife software as examples of great software, and who would use a Mac if he didn't work at Microsoft? Is that the same Allchin who further yet later acknowledged that Vista would be judged in relationship to Tiger, and admired some of the Mac OS'x features, such as Spotlight after attending an Apple's developer conference?

Specifically, this Jim:

"From: Jim Allchin
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:38 AM
To: Bill Gates; Steve Ballmer
Subject: losing our way...

This is a rant. I'm sorry.

I am not sure how the company lost sight of what matters to our customers (both business and home) the most, but in my view we lost our way. I think our teams lost sight of what bug-free means, what resilience means, what full scenarios mean, what security means, what performance means, how important current applications are, and really understanding what the most important problems [our] customers face are. I see lots of random features and some great vision, but that doesn't translate onto great products.

I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft. If you run the equivalent of VPC on a MAC you get access to basically all Windows application software (although not the hardware). Apple did not lose their way. You must watch this new video below. I know this doesn't show anything for businesses, but my point is about the philosophy that Apple uses. They think scenario. They think simple. They think fast. I know there is nothing hugely deep in this.

http://www.apple.com/ilife/video/ilife04_32C.html [Note: link no longer works]

I must tell you everything in my soul tells me that we should do what I called plan (b) yesterday We need a simple fast storage system. LH is a pig and I don't see any solution to this problem. If we are to rise to the challenge of Linux and Apple, we need to start taking the lessons of "scenario, simple, fast" to heart.

jim"

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/110354.asp

No thanks Bill, I will pass on asking Jim, as he has already told us all we need to know.

Who says mac fanatics are smug? But man, talk about reaching into the dark ages. I mean damn, that was before Windows 3.1 even existed! Tandy computers? Seriously? Radioshack, that's what that is. But, well, maybe Mac users really are behind the times.

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Dean Lewis wrote:

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Guest wrote:
I am not a zealot on one side or the other but it makes you wonder if Apple is so much better and it is so obvious that it is why don't more people use Apple computers?

&quot;DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines in use wordwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form.&quot;
---New York Times, November 26, 1991

Let me know when PCs run software like Shake, and Logic. You know the applications that brought you cool films like King Kong and Lord of the Rings?

Moreover, CATIA runs on the mac or soon will. The only major crappy program I can think of that is not running on the Mac is AutoCad. Who cares, there are plenty of Mac based programs that do the job.

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Guest wrote:
So giving corporate users the option of not forcing people to learn something new is bad? Perhaps you Apple zealots will one day learn its not what things look like but what they can do.

Let me know when major engineering software packages run on OS X.