PC World Finds Apple Laptops Cheaper Than PC Laptops
PC World Finds Apple Laptops Cheaper Than PC Laptops
by , 2:15 PM EDT, July 9th, 2008
If you want to compare apples to PCs, don't buy into the old hype that MacBooks and MacBook Pros cost more than a PC laptop, according to the Windows-oriented PC World magazine. The magazine compared Apple's MacBook, MacBook Pro, and MacBook Air to similarly configured laptops from Dell, HP, and Lenovo, and found that Apple's offerings were the cheaper, with a caveat or two.
The first caveat is in the MacBook Air and Lenovo X300 comparison, which found that the Chinese laptop was cheaper if you bought it with a 20% discount that was being offered when the systems were configured on 6/20/2008 (that discount is still available as of this writing on 7/9/2008). PC World found that the discounted price of the X300 was US$2711 with 3rd party photo and video editing software, compared $3,098 for the MacBook Air.
The second caveat is that PC World included software in its pricing comparisons. The magazine included copies of Adobe's Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements for $99 in order to make the PC laptops from all three vendors include (some of) the same functionality as Apple's iLife suite, which is included in Apple's MacBook line for free.
PC apologists often discount the inclusion of iLife as a point of comparison, while PC World felt it an issue that needed to be addressed. In our own comparisons -- as well as Charles Gaba's more recent shootouts -- we have tended to include 3rd party software on the PCs we're looking at, as well.
PC World priced a Dell XPS M1330 at $1,308, compared to a stock MacBook at $1,299. On the pro side, the magazine priced an HP Compaq 8710w Mobile Workstation at $3,561, compared to a MacBook Pro at $3,049.
Author James A. Martin concluded, "Don't buy into the old argument that Mac laptops are categorically more expensive than Windows machines. Sometimes that's true--but they're often on par with, or cost less than, their closest Windows laptop equivalents."
Observer Comments
The inclusion of the tools in the purchase price is likley to raise some eyebrows but it seems legitimate. If you are going to do some real work with the system then you'll need some of these extra tools that Apple includes for free. If you just want a laptop just to do e-mail and surf, get an Asus. Even the base MacBook is more than you need.
To be fair to PC World they have always given non Microsoft platforms a fair hearing. I have often read good and in depth reviews of Linux and Apple offerings in the publication. Which is a lot more than can be said for many other PC oriented magazines.
This will put PC World in a stronger position now the everyone+dog is switching over to Mac.
Quotegeoduck wrote:
The inclusion of the tools in the purchase price is likley to raise some eyebrows but it seems legitimate. If you are going to do some real work with the system then you'll need some of these extra tools that Apple includes for free. If you just want a laptop just to do e-mail and surf, get an Asus. Even the base MacBook is more than you need.
If you want to do "real work", you'll probably need something beefier than iLife.
So why should you need to pay for it? You can say it's free, but if you're already relying on "free" software to justify the intially higher price, it's hard to consider it free. Besides, there are free alternatives for Windows and Linux, so saying everyone would need to buy Photoshop Elements and Premier Elements is a stretch.
The problem is the same as it's been for many years: Apple's machines are perfectly well priced for what they offer, but who really NEEDS everything they offer? Nowhere near the entire user base. Personally, I never use iLife. The only iApp I use is iTunes, which is truly free (for Windows, too). I am certainly not the type to just use email and surf the web. The computing world is not split into casual web users and amateur digital video editors.
If you jack up any old PC to meet every spec offered by Apple's machines, Apple's machines look good, but that's not a fair comparison. If you do the reverse, Apple will look bad.
Do I need a built-in camera? Absolutely not. Do I need an infrared remote? Again, no. I could even do without bluetooth. But I can't buy a Mac laptop without any of those things. I could buy a PC laptop without them, and save money. So for me, a PC laptop would probably be a lot cheaper. I think most users would cut off a feature or two if they could. Apple's lineup is beautifully simple, but it doesn't come close to covering the range other PC makers do. It hasn't in about a decade.
You can try to take a cold, hard look at it and spin it any way you want, but it really misses the point. It's not a matter of cold hard facts, and it never has been. "Equivalent" software is never really equivalent. Is XP or Vista equivalent to OS X? Hah! If I could run OS X on an Asus (without potentially shooting myself in the foot), I wouldn't even consider an Apple computer. Since I can't, I don't seriously consider anything else.
Way back, before MacOS X/iLife, when Mac's didn't really include much software, price-comparison sites were adding MS Office for Mac at full retail price for comparisons against Window's boxes that came bundled with office...
But now that Mac's include top-quality software, it's unfair to consider the cost of having similar software on the Windows box?
When you can get a $399 PC laptop that will do what 90% of what people need to do then an Apple is overkill x10.
I'd rather buy a new $399 PC every six months, in the end ultimately having better hardware than the Apple.
To compare applications included is a mute point, and in fact XP and Vista will perform better on the the exact same hardware in all Adobe applications. Windows has been running on x86 longer, and it will take Apple time to catch up. You can also get a $399 PC and wipe it clean and run Leopard on it, hence you have an Apple.
Apples are way over priced for what you get, they should sell the OS and let the consumer choose the hardware, maybe then I'd consider a Mac, until then I'll stick with Windoze on cheap hardware.
I have been a hard-core Microsoft/PC person for over 20 years. I hated every update by Microsoft. My son got tired of hearing this so he gave me his MacBook with OS X 10.4.11 on it.
I am sorry if you do not see it this way, but, Mac could not run as SLOW as MS if it would run backwards. If your Mac is not fast, get someone to teach you how to use it.
Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:11 pm Subject: Re: They've added software costs before...
QuoteGuest wrote:
Way back, before MacOS X/iLife, when Mac's didn't really include much software, price-comparison sites were adding MS Office for Mac at full retail price for comparisons against Window's boxes that came bundled with office...
But now that Mac's include top-quality software, it's unfair to consider the cost of having similar software on the Windows box?
No, not at all. It was stupid then, too. :p Turnaround is fair play, sure, but when it comes to FUD, I think we should strive for a higher standard (i.e., none of it).
So, Mikuro, what you say is essentially that among the few models Apple offers, you find a better choice among the myriad of models which exist in the world of PCs?
Well, no one will deny that. But if you compare similar models to what Apple actually has to offer, I think the article has a point.
Of course, that might be hard to swallow since one is used to have it the other way round so one goes chasing for any argument one can possibly find to shoot the article down.
A bit desperate, I think...
Mikuro, you have a good point. If you don't need it why pay for it.
However many PC vendors include software with their hardware to offer something more attractive to provide a solution to people's needs to generate a hardware sale.
The difference with Mac's over PC's is that they hold their resale value longer, check eBay for yourself.
Also one doesn't have to clean oddles of worthless crap software off a Mac like a PC.
Also one doesn't have to run anti-virus software hogging up precious processor cycles...
Also one doesn't have to "fix" their Mac all the time or have someone do it for them.
Also one gets great innovation benefits with Mac's, for instance the magnetic power connector. No more flying laptops because of a tripped cord.
How about the lighted keyboard? The monitor that adjusts the brightness based upon the light? Integrated camera, free iChat three way video with your friends or buisiness people.
Apple includes great new software and hardware innovations to make sales, to enrich your life. Bu they have to expose you to it or you'll never realize how much better your life would have been without them.
With a PC you barely see a innovation, because one is so focused on being a cheap ass.
It's like the invention of the laser. Didn't have purpose for it, but now it's everywhere.
Besides, 20 years being malware and Microsoft aggravation free is the best benefit of all.
Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:25 pm Subject: Realistic price comparisons
QuoteI think that's a very legit point of comparison. Macs have always been superior at dealing with media... PC's? Not so much. I have to smirk every time I run across a PC user who has no idea what to do w/ a GIF, TIF, or EPS and can't find an app to open them in. You know what else would be a great comparison? Your personal time spent (or not spent) dealing with OS issues, debugging, handling spyware/ viruses, figuring out why your camera will no longer talk to the computer... etc. Might be an arbitrary point of comparison, but it is a REAL difference. I hear the constant complaints from Windows users, and I honestly have to ask: Isn't your time worth something?geoduck wrote:
The inclusion of the tools in the purchase price is likley to raise some eyebrows but it seems legitimate.
QuoteI can't speak for geoduck, but I think he meant, "using your computer for something other than surfing the net, checking email or playing games". PC's do not give you great media software like iLife for that kind of stuff.Mikuro wrote:
If you want to do "real work", you'll probably need something beefier than iLife.
QuoteBare bones PC's still have to be upgraded to be even modestly functional, so you can automatically count on plunking down $$$ for a decent graphics card & enough RAM to keep your software running. Your price would be more realistically $650. We're not even going to tack on your time involved debugging the thing and fixing glitches. Cost of the cheapest Mac laptop? $1100. You'll be able to hang on to it for at least 3 to 4 years, and still get a decent ROI since they tend to hold their value (of course, by that time your cheap PC will be worth next to nothing). Total cost of your PC (by your specs, replacing every 6 months) within that time frame? $3900. Buy cheap, you get cheap... and in the end, you rip yourself off.Guest wrote:
When you can get a $399 PC laptop that will do what 90% of what people need to do then an Apple is overkill x10. I'd rather buy a new $399 PC every six months, in the end ultimately having better hardware than the Apple.
QuoteFine, then run Adobe on your beloved XP within Mac OS' Bootcamp. Mac trumps Windows again, on their own turf.To compare applications included is a mute point, and in fact XP and Vista will perform better on the the exact same hardware in all Adobe applications.
QuoteWhich would explain why people are abandoning Apple in droves for ultra-cheap, junk hardware.You can also get a $399 PC and wipe it clean and run Leopard on it, hence you have an Apple.
Apple puts great hardware and software out there for people to use. I love iLife apps, as I grow my capabilities, and buy other new equipment, (i.e. digital camcorder, camera, iPhone, etc), the easy integration of that Hardware, (I didn't initially anticipate buying when I bought the Apple), but you know, you take that 4 year old iBook, plug in the 2008 camera, and guess what, it just works!!!
You can grow you capabilities on a Mac, good luck with those stripped down PC's that you will spend endless hours trying to make work with new hardware and keep clean of viruses.
Quotexmattingly wrote:QuoteI can't speak for geoduck, but I think he meant, "using your computer for something other than surfing the net, checking email or playing games". PC's do not give you great media software like iLife for that kind of stuff.geoduck wrote:
Did you just really try to compare gaming on a PC vs an Apple, and infer Apple is superior? For what? Oregon Trail?
Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:45 pm Subject: Faulty Comparison
I don't know where your shopping, but if you go to HP's website and Apple's website your pricing is off. If you configure the dv2700t to match a similar Macbook the HP is $899.99. Keep in mind this is without considering the software that the Macbook comes with that you'd need to purchase extra to obtain the same value. If you do that the HP then costs $1, 187.99 (this is upgrading to include backup software, Photoshop elements, and the best version of Vista (which has about the same features as Leopard). For verification, go to:
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeName=computer_store&category=notebooks&a1=Category&v1=Special+edition&series_name=dv2700tse_series&aoid=35252&afsrc=1
In comparison, the 2.1 GHZ Macbook starts it's pricing at $1099, which is cheaper if you consider the software. This assumes you are not getting an education discount on the Macbook, which then brings the price down another $100 (and currently you get a free $399 iPod to boot). To be fair, I'd have to point out that the HP does come with a better disk burner, but that doesn't add more then $50 to $100 to the value. See:
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook?mco=MTE3MjA
If you compare similarly configured 2.4 GHZ dv2700t and Macbooks, the HP comes in at 1262.99 and the Macbook at $1299. This Macbook comes with a Superdrive. Like PC World, I included the backup software, Photoshop elements (the same price as iLife), and the top version of Vista.
The Macbook also has certain intangibles benefits such as the Maglite connector, it is easier to swap out ram, you can run both OSX and Windows on it, and I suspect it is lighter. Further, the tech support speaks English, and you can take it to a Genius bar.
The HP model you reference can get a better graphic card, but there is only one other option, and it isn't that much better. AS far as other configuration options goes, they aren't much different then what you can get on the Mac. Again compare the websites.
It is also worth pointing out that the price of the model you reference is a promotional price (at least according to HP). I suppose you can find a slightly better deal of the HP model if you shop around (I don't know). However, you can find a slightly better price on the Macbook if you know where to look.
QuoteGuest wrote:
I did the same exercise,
HP Pavilion dv2700t vs. MacBook
For a 2.1 GHz laptop HP = 964, Apple = 1349 around 40% more
For a 2.4 GHz laptop HP = 1014, Apple = 1499 around 48% more
Besides for the HP you could get also configure a better graphics card and other configuration options.
Sure it is legitimate provided that fact is disclosed. You have to pay an extra $160 dollars on most PCs to get the top of the line version of Vista. Moreover, every PC vendor is trying to upsale you on many of the things Macs have included (e.g. backup software and Media software). Further, many Macs users really appreciate some of the Apple specific features on it's notebooks, but these things are never valued in comparisons.
QuoteMikuro wrote:Quotegeoduck wrote:
The inclusion of the tools in the purchase price is likley to raise some eyebrows but it seems legitimate. If you are going to do some real work with the system then you'll need some of these extra tools that Apple includes for free. If you just want a laptop just to do e-mail and surf, get an Asus. Even the base MacBook is more than you need.
If you want to do "real work", you'll probably need something beefier than iLife.
The problem is the same as it's been for many years: Apple's machines are perfectly well priced for what they offer, but who really NEEDS everything they offer? Nowhere near the entire user base. Personally, I never use iLife. The only iApp I use is iTunes, which is truly free (for Windows, too). I am certainly not the type to just use email and surf the web. The computing world is not split into casual web users and amateur digital video editors.
If you jack up any old PC to meet every spec offered by Apple's machines, Apple's machines look good, but that's not a fair comparison. If you do the reverse, Apple will look bad.
Do I need a built-in camera? Absolutely not. Do I need an infrared remote? Again, no. I could even do without bluetooth. But I can't buy a Mac laptop without any of those things. I could buy a PC laptop without them, and save money. So for me, a PC laptop would probably be a lot cheaper. I think most users would cut off a feature or two if they could. Apple's lineup is beautifully simple, but it doesn't come close to covering the range other PC makers do. It hasn't in about a decade.
You can try to take a cold, hard look at it and spin it any way you want, but it really misses the point. It's not a matter of cold hard facts, and it never has been. "Equivalent" software is never really equivalent. Is XP or Vista equivalent to OS X? Hah! If I could run OS X on an Asus (without potentially shooting myself in the foot), I wouldn't even consider an Apple computer. Since I can't, I don't seriously consider anything else.
Quotegeoduck wrote:
The inclusion of the tools in the purchase price is likley to raise some eyebrows but it seems legitimate. If you are going to do some real work with the system then you'll need some of these extra tools that Apple includes for free. If you just want a laptop just to do e-mail and surf, get an Asus. Even the base MacBook is more than you need.
QuoteNope. I compared Mac to Windows on consumer productivity and media management software, which you can use right out of the box on a Mac. Literally. That kind of software not only makes a comparable PC more expensive, but that out-of-the-box experience can't be had.Anonymous wrote:
Did you just really try to compare gaming on a PC vs an Apple, and infer Apple is superior? For what? Oregon Trail?
QuoteTo compare applications included is a mute point, and in fact XP and Vista will perform better on the the exact same hardware in all Adobe applications.
Maybe, but Windows (using Bootcamp) runs faster on a Mac running the same hardware as a PC (at least according to some reviewers). :O)
Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:01 am Subject: Re: We're not that stupid
Dear Anonymous Loser minus (I can't be bothered counting),
You started off your post by titling it: We're not that stupid. Then you said this:
QuoteAnonymous wrote:
To compare applications included is a mute point
It's moot. I do like a bit of irony.
A mute point would be one, similar to what you tried to make, which is shouted in the middle of a forest far, far away but makes no sound because there's no-one there to hear it.
What was that again?
Sorry, I rail against feeding the trolls, but this was just too good to pass up. Oh, and look: it's my 3.5kth post! W00t!
Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:08 am Subject: Re: We're not that stupid
Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:27 am Subject:
Oh bugger - now we've got the Mac bigots in as well.
My point, and with your apparent lack of linguistic ability you may find it difficult to understand, was that the PC bigots tend to find it difficult to make a cogent argument. I pull back from that statement now. Mac bigots can be just as bad.
As I have said far too many times in these forums, an argument loses its impact (and yours is especially poor) when absolutely no care is made to put a sentence together so that the reader can be won over. You show no facts, and an appalling ability in English and logic.
You lose. Big time.
QuoteLaurieF wrote:
As I have said far too many times in these forums, an argument loses its impact (and yours is especially poor) when absolutely no care is made to put a sentence together so that the reader can be won over. You show no facts, and an appalling ability in English and logic.
Well put, LaurieF. I, too, am annoyed with incorrect use of English, even when this is done in defence of such irrelevancies as operating systems.
Anyway, if one wishes to use a Windows-based cheap (perhaps) laptop, rather than a more expensive (perhaps) Apple laptop, so be it. "You pays your money, you takes your choice," as the saying goes (let no-one rant against the incorrect verb forms -- they are part of the saying). I drive a relatively expensive car for many of the same reasons that I use Apple computers: it is comfortable, reliable, strong, looks good, requires less maintenance? Others might be happy in a clapped out banger, of course.
I've found that my Mac laptop was just as good value as similarly priced PC notebooks - and it looks prettier than mosy of them.
On a slightly different note I've also recently discovered that my Macbook Pro runs Vista better than my wife's Sony Laptop (I only need it to play some of my old games), although it doesn't do the nice flip 3d thing yet.
Either way, iLife or Adobe Photoshop etc, I can use OSX or Windows so now I'm happy on all counts! 
Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:23 pm Subject: Add the cost of XP or Vista to the Macbook!
Macs are more expensive. Period. You can find a laptop with a 17" screen, DVD Burner, and 3GB+ RAM for under half of what you would pay for a MacBook Pro. I like Apple's products for design and software, but let's stop putting this spin on the argument for Apple. A lot of people just want lots of space, decent speed, a DVD BURNER, and a nice big 17" screen. Match those specs, and you get the real-world appeal of PCs versus Macs.
This whole "matching" game is like a spin act from Bill O'Reilly. The average consumer could care less about their processor being an Intel Core 2 or some AMD variant. They want to be able to use Office, connect to their Exchange network, watch DVDs on their big screen, and occasionally play a game here and there- something Apple can't really offer at the same cost of entry. Specs in this real world comparison are useless.
There's an appeal to having Apple products. They're sleek, easy to use, even easier to maintain (pretty much zero maintenance), and they are just fun to operate for the most basic of tasks... but for gamers who want to upgrade or run the majority of their games through Windows they are not gold, nor for businesses whose IT depends on homogenous platforms, nor for the budget consumer who wants a little of every luxury (burner, max RAM, big screen). Find your arguments elsewhere because these suck.
Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:09 pm Subject:
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