Wow. I mean wow. Why can't companies just do what they do (make money) and stay the hell out of politics. No matter what side companies take in politics, they are always ostracizing the opposing viewpoint, especially on a topic like this. I know that for me, personally, Linux never looked so good...

The politics thing makes me cringe when companies start throwing their weight around one way or the other.

No doubt you would feel the exact same way if they supported Prop H8.

I can name all the Macs I've had throughout the years and have been proud to be Mac user. Pulling this stunt taints Apple's image and should not go unnoticed. Apple: stick to making better computers which you are good at and not punch your customers stomaches while your at it. That's how it feels. I'm for traditional marriage and would've never had to bring it up in one of my favorite Mac sites but this smart company is making a STUPID move. Most of the country is for traditional marriage and Apple just made a STUPID move by insulting and punching them in their stomaches. This pisses me off and I know others feel the same way. APPLE, STICK TO MAKING GREAT COMPUTERS AND GREAT SOFTWARE. You must made a huge mistake!

Mistake? Maybe as I assume some people will now drop Apple products and go to Windows. (Or at least threaten to.)

But anyone who thinks politics and business don't lie in the same bed are kidding themselves.

Now I don't know why they publicly chose to do this. But assume at some point Apple weighted the pros and cons and figured it was worth the risk.

Dude, I just wrote a long post and it got deleted because I supposedly typed the captcha "Sawtooth" incorrectly - which I didn't. This is getting annoying. Usually I have to type the captchas 2 to 3 times (I don't know why it doesn't work the first time) but at least I don't have to write everything from scratch!

Yeah, maybe because the world is bigger than just the USA? Not everybody is as conservative as the Americans. Although I agree that Apple should keep politics out of the business they are supporting their main motto. I think I don't have to remind what it is?

I have been happily married to my wife for more than two years and have been an Apple user for much longer than that. I support Apple's decision to defend the civil rights of all people and allow them to enjoy the same right to a legally recognized marriage I have.
To the bigots that oppose this measure... I assume it is based on your religious beliefs. Please keep in mind that all Americans have a right to their own religious beliefs, and your church is not forced to recognize same-sex marriages as holy matrimony. Prop 8 only defends the right to a legally recognized marriage.

Guest - "Most of the country is for traditional marriage"

No where is "traditional marriage" being denied. Stop talking in code and just come out and declare yourself a bigot.

Next: They're bring back the rainbow Apple logo.

Oh, just kidding. It's just fun to blow things out of proportion. That's what people on "teh interwebs" do, right?

They don't support gay marriage, they oppose the banning of it.

The difference is the same as innocent and not guilty. Get your non-biased caps back on for gods sake.

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Anonymous wrote:
I have been happily married to my wife for more than two years and have been an Apple user for much longer than that. I support Apple's decision to defend the civil rights of all people and allow them to enjoy the same right to a legally recognized marriage I have.
To the bigots that oppose this measure... I assume it is based on your religious beliefs. Please keep in mind that all Americans have a right to their own religious beliefs, and your church is not forced to recognize same-sex marriages as holy matrimony. Prop 8 only defends the right to a legally recognized marriage.

Let's be blunt brother, you weren't born out of a butthole and I wasn't either. I am defending the church (not saying they are all good) but this would have tremendous consequences on pastors and the like... there's a bigger picture and frankly, I don't have enough time write all day long. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in about Apple's mistake, they would've been better off not saying anything about the topic.

Going back to Apple (because that's what this thread is about) I'm now on the hunt to find another platform that is compatible with Adobe CS3 which is what I use everyday. Wish me luck!

"There are some customers which we choose not to serve"

Goodbye, and enjoy your PC.

The purpose of a corporation is to make money. Profit is the core value and I don't expect any company to do the right thing if it might impact the bottom line.

That said, I am extremely happy to see Apple making a stand for what is right and just. I am very happy to use the products of a company that would take this stand for justice. Those of you who have a problem with this and with same-sex marriage in general; you need to sit down and stop hiding behind dogma and old prejudices. You are becoming the luddites of the 21st century.

Here are a few things I created several years ago on the subject
http://homepage.mac.com/geoduck/writing/Marriage.html
http://homepage.mac.com/geoduck/writing/Marriage2.html
http://homepage.mac.com/geoduck/Art/Images/UnderARockM.jpg

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

My movie pick of the week is "Hate Crime".

You cannot call someone a bigot simply because they do not endorse same sex marriage as it's being currently politically promoted.

It's really not so much a religious issue, as it is about Local, State, and Federal dollars. More married couples equals more revenue for some government agencies, and more perceived benefits for those that want to do it. It's basically supported for the sake of money, (and/or the fear of losing money).

Ethics, religion, and thousands of years of history by virtually every human civilization is being ignored because of fear of being labelled "a bigot"!

As a foreigner (from Europe), I find it most bizarre that a country that tends to pride itself for striving hard to get rid of biggotry, racism and discrimination in all forms would actually go out of way to deny certain civil rights to a small segment of its population based on some arbitrary criteria.

We could argue 'till we're blue in the face regarding the percentage of population in the US whose sexual orientation diverges from the mainstream, or regarding whether it's a choice or not, but there remains a fact that there are millions of people who don't have the same rights at this moment.

There is nothing political about this. Much like the rights of women to vote, early last century, or rights of coloured people to vote later in the century, or even rights of people to marry outside of their own race/skin colour. And just as there appear to be segments of this society who genuinely believe they are correct in denying this population the right to marry, so were there the segments of population who genuinely believed that coloured people shouldn't be allowed to vote, or that women had no business voting.

Depending on collective maturity of the American society, this may take longer or not, but it will undoubtedly happen. It has to, since there is no logical reason why it shouldn't.

Apple always seemed to be a forward-looking company. They have consistently proven this by their innovation. This just confirms it on human level as well.

Next time europeans build a statue of liberty, i think they'll just keep it.

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Guest wrote:
Wow. I mean wow. Why can't companies just do what they do (make money) and stay the hell out of politics. No matter what side companies take in politics, they are always ostracizing the opposing viewpoint, especially on a topic like this. I know that for me, personally, Linux never looked so good...

So, you're feeling ostracized by Apple's support of endangered civil rights, & so you're turning to Linux?

OK, Sayanara. Have a nice life over there.

I believe that to deny marriage rights to same sex couples is bigotry. From a legal standpoint, marriage is a contract with rights and responsibilities. Why do we deny those rights to same-sex couples?

I also believe that Apple and Google have a good business reason to make this stand. They want to ensure that they can hire the most talented people. They want those talented people to be dedicated to, and feel supported by, their employer. Sometimes the best and brightest are in a same-sex relationship. Apple doesn't want to alienate those people.

So now to the counter argument. What about you people who feel "stomach punched" by this stand? Well, I think Apple calculates that the loss of a customer over this issue would be less than the gain. For purely economic reasons this makes sense for Apple and Google.

I think you'll find that many a large company has same-sex benefits because it makes good business sense.

Denying same-sex couples these rights will not make those people stop seeing each other. You cannot legislate love. Neither should you legislate against it.

(But Losing Firewire on the MacBooks and the MobileMe rollout? Apple was wrong there.)

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Guest wrote:
Ethics, religion, and thousands of years of history by virtually every human civilization is being ignored because of fear of being labelled "a bigot"!

Ethics have nothing to do with it. Human history is a series of stupid erroneous beliefs that eventually become obsolete. The religious definition of marriage has no right to be legally enforced upon people who do not follow that religion. That's basically a violation of the Constitution.

If you really want marriage to be traditional, why not take love out of the equation and have parents pair off their kids when they're still babies in order to consolidate power?

I agree whole heartedly. I'm aware that Calif. is Loony; Land but the rest of the US doesn't cotten to Politically Correct BS such as this.
Though I'm totally blah on iPhones and IPods I'd rather they spend the money on them than politics. Then with the extra money they'd make Apple could sell better Tower models at lower prices. Something with lots of slots and expandable like Say the old PowerComputing Power Tower Pro.

the old curmudgeon

1 in 10 people are gay

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Guest wrote:

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Guest wrote:
Ethics, religion, and thousands of years of history by virtually every human civilization is being ignored because of fear of being labelled "a bigot"!

Ethics have nothing to do with it. Human history is a series of stupid erroneous beliefs that eventually become obsolete. The religious definition of marriage has no right to be legally enforced upon people who do not follow that religion.

With all the comments on Prop 8, it is obvious many people have the definitions of "tolerance" and "intolerance" mixed up. I applaud Apple for taking a stance, although I would be for Prop 8 if I were a resident of California. I tolerate the opinions of those who believe that same-sex marriage is ok - and by tolerate, I mean the actual dictionary definition, which says that we agree to disagree but can still associate amicably. Hence, I'm not going to boycott Apple because of their stance on one issue, although I disagree with it.

As a young US citizen, when did we as Americans start becoming dictated to and incorrectly labeled by the minority (whatever the minority happens to be on an issue)?

Label me whatever you want and assign any imaginary motives to me - I don't care. To the person I quoted - you are exactly correct, this is not an ethics issue. It is also not an issue of any "religious definition of marriage" since religions in this very country define marriage differently. Have you forgotten the recent headlines of the government removing children in homes in Texas where illegal polygamous "marriage" is practiced? Or are all of you who support gay marriage also going to publicly support polygamy?

In regards to "Human history is a series of stupid erroneous beliefs that eventually become obsolete." Yes, this is correct. Humans are also quick to forget timeless principles and sound, fundamental truths all in the name of progress or "our civilization is more advanced/enlightened/better than yours"... 2 steps forward, 1 step back. The residents of California have already spoken about this issue in the year 2000 and the minority must not dictate how the majority think and live. That is intolerance.

I've been in Ohio for the past four years, and "we" recently passed a similar referendum. It was universally condemned by businesses because of the implications on them. Companies interested in making money know that laws that interfere with the fair compensation of gay people damage their ability to retain the best man for the job. Since apple's HQ is in CA, I think they have as much a right to be interested in policies that affect them as do individuals. We don't cry foul when companies hire lobbyists, contributing to political campaigns is a similar function. I think those who oppose Apple's contribution misconstrue the issue as being purely religious/personal. This is not true. There are sound business reasons to oppose prop 8.

I support blocking this idiotic proposition and support Apple even more for donating some money to help. I think it is a sad world we live in when two people can not be married because some people think it is wrong. I say if two people are consenting adults and want to get married let them. Who am I to say that some one else's love is wrong because it is different from my own.

Please vote NO on proposition 8.

I am also pro-traditional marriage. Marriage should be arranged by parents for their children, preferably by an age of 12 or 13, with someone of the parent's choice to better help the family financially as a whole. A good husband or wife is best bought. Love is a modern device which has clearly not been successful, as is shown by the poor success of today's love-based marriages. Also, traditional marriage would be more long lasting since the wife would know her place and follow the rule of her husband. It is hard to divorce someone if they can beat the crap out of you without worries of those pesky laws. I am so glad to see that so many people agree that traditional marriage, as has been done for thousands of years in the Christian and other religions, is something that can correct the evils of the modern world.

"I agree whole heartedly. I'm aware that Calif. is Loony; Land but the rest of the US doesn't cotten to Politically Correct BS such as this. "

1. What is "Loony; Land"? I am aware that semicolon doesn't get the respect that it should, neither do gays, but I am wondering about the quality of of education in places that actually do cotton politically incorrect BS.

2. As a California resident I can tell you we do have some loonies and some not so much. It is a great place to live if you are tolerant of others.

3. The latest polls show that Prop 8 will probably fail, it might be close, but it will probably fail. If it does pass there will still be a long legal battle before the State Constitution is changed to allow discrimination against gays. If it fails, well then "As goes California so goes the Nation," the movement will probably spread to states that currently do not cotton politically correct BS.

Disclaimer: The author holds some Apple Stock and supports Apple's decision in this regard. Furthermore, I am a raging straight, but very supportive of the rights of my gay friends. Vote No on 8.

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Guest wrote:
I am also pro-traditional marriage. Marriage should be arranged by parents for their children, preferably by an age of 12 or 13, with someone of the parent's choice to better help the family financially as a whole. A good husband or wife is best bought. Love is a modern device which has clearly not been successful, as is shown by the poor success of today's love-based marriages. Also, traditional marriage would be more long lasting since the wife would know her place and follow the rule of her husband. It is hard to divorce someone if they can beat the crap out of you without worries of those pesky laws. I am so glad to see that so many people agree that traditional marriage, as has been done for thousands of years in the Christian and other religions, is something that can correct the evils of the modern world.

Guest, that's the most awesome post in this thread. Please register and hang out at TMO more often.

Bryan
Editor
TMO

"Going back to Apple (because that's what this thread is about) I'm now on the hunt to find another platform that is compatible with Adobe CS3 which is what I use everyday. Wish me luck!"

So, will you stop using CS3 when you find that someone in a committed same-sex marriage wrote some of its code?

Are people who only want rights for themselves, and want to deny them to other consenting adults. I'll never understand the mindset that thinks it is OK to tell other people what rights they can or cannot have, especially based on a religion that even its own adherents cannot agree upon.

--Ron

This issue really isn't about politics. The issue effects real people. Here in Michigan, where a similar proposal was passed, thousands of both gay and straight life partners were denied previously offered employer health benefits because such benefits could only be offered to straight married people. Moreover, unmarried life partners are not protected when a person dies.

I applaud Apple's move because 1) it is the right thing to do, and 2) it is risky. When something is clearly wrong, people should voice their opinion on it when they believe in something. In this case, Apple likely has plenty of gay employees who Apple is standing up and saying we value you. Moreover, regular people in our society don't have a voice anymore. Companies like Apple do.

Proposals that seek to outlaw gay marriages are backed mostly by right wing religious groups. I respect those groups' right to have a view on these topics. However, we supposedly live in a free country were we are all equal. In such a country, other's views should not effect the benefits one is able to receive under the law. Freedom is about protecting the views we deplore as well as love.

For what it is worth, as a straight male, I would never get married. The laws highly favor women. When you get a divorce, as most married couples eventually do, you, as the male will pay the price. However, gay couples don't face the same risks, and they should be able to receive the same benefits.

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Guest wrote:
I can name all the Macs I've had throughout the years and have been proud to be Mac user. Pulling this stunt taints Apple's image and should not go unnoticed. Apple: stick to making better computers which you are good at and not punch your customers stomaches while your at it. That's how it feels. I'm for traditional marriage and would've never had to bring it up in one of my favorite Mac sites but this smart company is making a STUPID move. Most of the country is for traditional marriage and Apple just made a STUPID move by insulting and punching them in their stomaches. This pisses me off and I know others feel the same way. APPLE, STICK TO MAKING GREAT COMPUTERS AND GREAT SOFTWARE. You must made a huge mistake!

when you use a free (as in beer) OS, there is no profit to go into political activism.

I agree that you don't have to be a bigot to disapprove this issue. For instance, if the purpose of marriage is to promote the raising of children, and gay marriages for the most part do not involve the raising of children, maybe if the costs to the government for approving such marriages would be too great, such marriage should not be allowed.

However, in the context of current proposals on the topic, the issue is religious because it is religious groups pushing the issue. Fact is I don't know what makes a person gay. Perhaps they are born that way. If so, why should I deny to people who love one another the protections that married people receive under the law because giving married people that benefit goes against some's religious beliefs? I use to practice probate law. I have seen it happen several times where two gay people lived together for twenty years or so. One dies, and the family of the deceased, who shunned the deceased over the last twenty years for being gay, inherits everything from this person. The person the deceased loved gets nothing. If the two could marry that wouldn't happen. You could say the couple in my example should have had a will. Perhaps, but most people don't' because 1) they are not educated, or 2) they don't have a clue they are going to die.

Protecting religious beliefs in this country seems to only be in favor when it is the christian religion at issue. Churches are free to not perform or accept such marriages. The government, however, should not take a position on the issue.

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Guest wrote:
You cannot call someone a bigot simply because they do not endorse same sex marriage as it's being currently politically promoted.

It's really not so much a religious issue, as it is about Local, State, and Federal dollars. More married couples equals more revenue for some government agencies, and more perceived benefits for those that want to do it. It's basically supported for the sake of money, (and/or the fear of losing money).

Ethics, religion, and thousands of years of history by virtually every human civilization is being ignored because of fear of being labelled "a bigot"!

the most vehement hate of the campaign has been directed toward people whose religious views preclude gay marriage.

already the Massachusetts law has been used as a foundation for a new "Jim Crow" era with religious persons and institutions being denied their First Amendment protections.

Steve O and company just lost me as a fan and customer! I have recently switched from Pc to Mac - and bought several computers and 3 iPhones etc.

The sad part is they didn't even need to do this -- what was there for them to gain - if they had remained neutral, which any good business man would it wouldn't have hurt them. To come out on either side of a polarizing issue like this is just dumb -- which makes you wonder why they did it.javascript:emoticon('')

All I have to add is that politics are driving this. And, saying anything else is pelosi!! Or has we used to say, BS!

Apple please stay out of politics, you make the best hardware and software, and what policies you provide your employees is your business.

The traditional family unit is as old as time and the cement that holds society together. American society is in a free fall . Without a moral compass our society will only worsen.
What?s Apple supporting next polygamy? What?s going too far?

I suggest potential buyers of Apple products hold off buying Apple products until the first of the year as a way of having some kind of voice of saying stay out of public politics.

Absolutely fantastic. As with everything important, Apple is in the forefront.

Thanks for standing up for civil rights.

Apple, please stay out of politics, what benifits you offer your employees is fine, but American society is in a free fall don't add to its demise.
The traditional family unit is as old as time (does not need fixing) and is the glue that holds society together

Without a moral compass our society will only worsen. Will Apple make a donation to suport polygamy next?
I suggest potential buyers hold off buying Apple products until the first of the year as a way of sending a reply that actions do have conquences.

This is really disappointing, I love apple's products but this is making me reconsider if I want to support a gay marriage via purchasing products from a company that is supporting gay marriage.

And while you're giving all thismoney away, why don't Apple give $100 grand to each of the following needy groups: premi-babies, disabled children, elder care, socio-economically distressed middle schools......oh, this group you are supporting with your money can afford to buy Macs, whereas the groups i've mentioned cannot (thus no announcement of money for them).

Extremely smart business move Apple. A deep pocketed demographic targeted for support in order to increase sells in computers. Very smart.

I'm amazed at the incredible amount of narrow-minded people that uses Apple products these days. Maybe this is the real "iPod effect" that has attracted all kinds of bigots to our great platform?

Guys... what happened to "Think Different"?

This public move makes me even more proud of being a loyal Apple customer. Keep up the good work Apple? but please don't abandon FW800!!!

Just sit back and observe the name calling. Wow. Why so much hate against the modern day Christian? I am for NORMAL marriage (some call traditional). Why should the minority (as someone here mentioned) rule the majority? Most people are normal and aren't into modern day perversion. I hope this passes but with the fraudulent-prone Diebold machines, I have my doubts.

And by the way, I've been a Mac user for a very long time. No iPod-halo affect here as I was around before Steve-o came back to the Apple throne in '97. Stick to creating the best computers/software out there Apple.

This will go down in the pages of history as one Unnecessary-Stupid-Political-Move?.

Just sit back and observe the name calling. Wow. Why so much hate against the modern day Christian? I am for NORMAL marriage (some call traditional). Why should the minority (as someone here mentioned) rule the majority? http://gaylife.about.com/od/comingout/a/population.htm Most people are normal and aren't into modern day perversion. I hope this passes but with the fraudulent-prone Diebold machines, I have my doubts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy1IlAXeV30

And by the way, I've been a Mac user for a very long time. No iPod-halo affect here as I was around before Steve-o came back to the Apple throne in '97. Stick to creating the best computers/software out there Apple.

This will go down in the books as one Unnecessary-Stupid-Political-Move?.

By that same logic, then we should also allow incestuous marriages. If two consenting adults (brother/sister or father/daughter) love each other and want to be married then who is going to get in their way?

... the :O:

It is good for people to see that large corporations in America today are powerful agents for undermining traditional, time proven social values.

It's amusing to hear liberals rail against corporate America when it seems clear to me that corporate america, the professional manager classes and rich costal people in general are powerful supporters of a leftist social agenda....too may people isolated from the dark realities of survival...all believing that it is "different this time"

Still love Macs, still plan to buy macs, still admire Steve...plan to vote with the majority for prop 8 and against the assault on social integrity....sorry Steve !