I live in a major US city and would settle for ONE Apple store within the city limits (instead of 2 located in suburbs 45 minutes away!)

"WooooooooooHoooo!"

"Mystique," you ask? " What mystique? They are just friggin' stores, for cryin' out loud!"

"Well, true that, Hamlet"

"Do ya feel my pain?"

Here's a thought: Just Awful.

I was JUST in Orlando for about a month over the summer (we should have hooked up, but I was on business...sorry) and what you said about the store at Millenia is entirely true- Small and ALWAYS crowded. I frequent the store in Tamap at International Plaza- BIG and ALWAYS crowded. I don't thin k this is a case of overexpansion at all. I think that the choice of locations is key and those locations add to the cache' of the apple brand/image/shopping experience, unlike the Gateway stores which became the Kenny Rogers Roasters of the computer world.

Living in Tulsa we have a CompUSA with an excellent Apple Rep, but an Apple Store would be better. Four is not fair at all.

I was in Orlando over the last weekend Vern and I have to admit that while following my 4 year old granddaughter around WDW I kept thinking that Disney should make nice with Apple so they could get an Apple Store - or maybe an Apple Nation at Epcot. Lets face it - the iPod nano costs about as much as a meal in some of the food joints.

I've never sat at the Genius Bar at an Apple Store.
From what I hear, the "bartenders" are very knowledgable and helpful. What I do know from experience (I work a quarter mile from the Apple Store on Michigan Ave. in Chicago, so I frequently visit)is that their sales staff should probably be required to take an Apple IQ test. I once had to stop an Apple employee from trying to sell a customer a set of speakers with a USB connection to a guy with an iPod. Something tells me that wouldn't have worked out too well. I also went with my fiancee to help her purchase a new Powerbook last month and was told that I could get a fully loaded 15'' PB for 2350 with a Student Discount...I later found out that it was 2414 and didn't have two of the upgrades that were promised to her. The sales guy also tried to tell me that 1X1GB RAM was much faster than 2X512GB.
Part of my undying love for Apple is that I never have to settle for anything less than the best and everything Apple is tightly integrated. I would hate to lose my faith because they are selling to the masses. I wish Apple the best and would love to see them grow as a company, but not at my or any other loyal customer's expense.

Take a english class.

true dat.

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Guest wrote:
I've never sat at the Genius Bar at an Apple Store.
From what I hear, the "bartenders" are very knowledgable and helpful. What I do know from experience (I work a quarter mile from the Apple Store on Michigan Ave. in Chicago, so I frequently visit)is that their sales staff should probably be required to take an Apple IQ test. I once had to stop an Apple employee from trying to sell a customer a set of speakers with a USB connection to a guy with an iPod. Something tells me that wouldn't have worked out too well. I also went with my fiancee to help her purchase a new Powerbook last month and was told that I could get a fully loaded 15'' PB for 2350 with a Student Discount...I later found out that it was 2414 and didn't have two of the upgrades that were promised to her. The sales guy also tried to tell me that 1X1GB RAM was much faster than 2X512GB.
Part of my undying love for Apple is that I never have to settle for anything less than the best and everything Apple is tightly integrated. I would hate to lose my faith because they are selling to the masses. I wish Apple the best and would love to see them grow as a company, but not at my or any other loyal customer's expense.

That's odd because I've had exactly the opposite experience with the sales staff at the Apple Stores I've visited in the past.

For instance, I was having an issue with my iPod and I was in my Little Apple Store waiting for my apointed time at the Genius Bar. A sales rep came up to me and asked me if I needed help, I told him my situation. He took my iPod, brought it up in a factory mode I knew existed, but had no clue how to get to, much less understand what I would be looking at if I did. He reset some things and my iPod has been fine ever since. I never had to bother the genius.

I also eavesdrop on conversations between salespeople and customers no matter where I go. I hate folks who give out misinformation or lie about things to make a sale. I've never heard an Apple rep knowingly give bad info to a customer. I've heard them get corrected on things they admitted they knew little about, and I've seen them ask for help from other reps, and customers.

I think it may be an Apple policy to, above all else, be honest. I think the guy you ran into was either new or grossly misinformed. I'd be surprised if he lasts there without changing his ways. If it is more than one person, then it is the manager's problem, and that person won't be long on the job, I betcha.

Vern Seward

Here's the thing: Gateway's stores were (are? or are they all gone now?) destination stores, meaning they were standalone locations that people had to make a point of going to. Apple sticks its stores among other stores in malls, etc., so they get lots of people passing by and stopping in. Smart of Apple; dumb of Gateway.

Of course, I think to most people, a Windows PC is a Windows PC. Why should they go out of their way to go buy a Gateway when they could go to CompUSA or Best Buy or whatever and have a selection to choose from? Meanwhile, Apple has that cool mystique that lures people in, which is why Steve Jobs will do whatever he can to keep people from sticking OS X on garden variety Intel boxes.

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Guest wrote:
Take a english class.

true dat.

You first. It should be "Take AN English class."

Vern

haha

In truth, I have found the associates at the International Plaza store to be very knowledgeable and helpful. The Genius Bar guys seem to be equally knowledgeable, but I really haven't needed them myself. I have been in the store when they are holding little instructional seminars and the "teachers" are quite good.

Gateway's problem with stores was that you couldn't walk out of them with a computer. You could play around with a demo unit and get all excited about it (some people, not me) then find out all you could do was order one. I guess their build-to-order sales model was more important than a sale itself.

Another weird thing with Gateway stores was that you couldn't order accessories unless you owned a Gateway computer. I tried to order a keyboard once because I liked the one my wife had with her Gateway computer but they weren't about to take my money for that.

Jack

Your concerns sort of remind me what happened to the Disney Store. When they first opened, they were few and far between, and it felt like every store was something special ... a destination in itself to go find cool, unique stuff. Then Disney got greedy and followed the 'dandelion' approach, and the stores themselves got more like overpriced outlet stores than anything special, and, coincidentally, profits fell through the floor.

Hopefully Apple won't go that route.

Sorry, but as long as Apple's market share is as tiny as it is, opening more stores is only a GOOD THING. Plus, comparing Apple to Disney (as the poster above did) is ridiculous. If nothing else, if all else fails, Apple Stores are Internet cafes for people to check their email. Apple is the smartest company on the planet, and you're questioning their infinite wisdom?

The Apple stores have become a great place to meet hot chicks. Anyone else noticed this phenomenon? I think the analysts call it the "iPod Halo Effect".

Apple needs to put the new stores in areas that don't have any third party resellers. Here in Northwest Indiana (pop. 400,000) there are NO places to buy a mac in a retail store. NONE, whatsoever. That means you have to go into Illinois to buy a mac at the retail level. But there aren't any stores in the south suburbs ether except for a Compusa in Orland. That means you have to go all the way to Oak Brook or to the Michigan Ave store (very cool store by the way) to get a Apple store. All the Apple stores in the Chicago area are north or west, none very close to here. Plus the areas to the north and west have third party resellers (some good some not). So Apple is competing with it own resellers, when no one is selling anything here.
There has to be other unserved areas around the country like this too. Areas with no stores, when apple is placing stores as close as fifteen minutes apart very bad move Apple. If they do that it will fail because profits (rents at malls are big bucks) will go down if they are too close.

15 miles? That's nothing. In the Minneapolis/St Paul area, we have two apple stores within 10 minutes of each other (not to mention another 30 minutes away from those).

Apple Stores are a dime a dozen around here.

-Clive

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richb wrote:
Apple needs to put the new stores in areas that don't have any third party resellers. Here in Northwest Indiana (pop. 400,000) there are NO places to buy a mac in a retail store. NONE, whatsoever. That means you have to go into Illinois to buy a mac at the retail level. But there aren't any stores in the south suburbs ether except for a Compusa in Orland. That means you have to go all the way to Oak Brook or to the Michigan Ave store (very cool store by the way) to get a Apple store. All the Apple stores in the Chicago area are north or west, none very close to here. Plus the areas to the north and west have third party resellers (some good some not). So Apple is competing with it own resellers, when no one is selling anything here.
There has to be other unserved areas around the country like this too. Areas with no stores, when apple is placing stores as close as fifteen minutes apart very bad move Apple. If they do that it will fail because profits (rents at malls are big bucks) will go down if they are too close.

I feel your pain, but one of the reasons Apple Stores are successful is that locations are carefully analyzed for all sorts of factors, not just the 2 I mentioned in my article. They only put stores where they can be assured of high traffic with deep pockets. That's not to say that they wouldn't make money at other locations, but to set up a store just to serve an area ( like Gateway did) won't insure success.

Profits take into account rent and salaries, so in the end the is choice whether to put a store where you know you'll get traffic, or put it where you might get traffic.

The good thing is that vendors could service these areas nicely without fear of direct competition from Apple.

Vern Seward

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Bosco wrote:
The Apple stores have become a great place to meet hot chicks. Anyone else noticed this phenomenon? I think the analysts call it the "iPod Halo Effect".

Ummmm, OK. I won't doubt it; people find each other in the strangest places. Just don't tell me you want to be married in a Mac Store.

Vern Seward

Since our Apple Store opened up in Grand Rapids a few months ago, it has made my "job" easier. I (like most of you no doubt) am known as the Mac guy. Being able to talk about an iBook or something then send someone into the store to play with it and get more info seals the deal. I think simply making Macs accessible to people is putting them in their minds and selling them. oh, and the whole iPod thing ain't hurting either.

That's the problem with marketing "studies" that retailers use. It doesn't take into account the realities of a area. An Apple store in Southlake Mall in Merrillville (the largest mall in Indiana by the way) would be just as successful (or more) as the stores in Oak Brook or Old Orchard. The problem NW Indiana has is one of image. It has a bad image to outsiders. The community I live in has average income of well over $100,000. There are plenty of deep pockets around here, and that mall is very busy. So busy it is being added on to. The mall management say a apple store is one of the most requested to be added to this mall.
Its also too bad there are no third party retailers of macs here. I have looked into becoming a reseller but Apple is not looking for any though. I just can't understand why some areas are overpacked with locations when others are not being covered by anybody.
I guess that why retail in general has a high rate of failure. They look at "studies" that have mistakes and generalities of areas. They think there are no rich folks (or upper middle class) in NW Indiana. Big mistake, if another store is added to the Chicago area and it isn't south of Chicago then the Apple store idea is doomed in Chicago. No customer should have to go fifty miles for a location. That's the reason my local school district decided to go to Dell because of the lack of support apple has done in this area.

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scotty321 wrote:
Plus, comparing Apple to Disney (as the poster above did) is ridiculous.

Feh. I wasn't saying Apple runs its stores like Disney did. I was just making a casual observation on Vern's angle for this story ...

Believe me, I have a LOT more faith in Apple (and Pixar) than I do in Disney. Really, I used to work for the Mouse.

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cooner wrote:

Feh. I wasn't saying Apple runs its stores like Disney did. I'm just trying to backtrack and cover my butt ...

Believe me, I have a LOT more faith in Apple (and Pixar) than I do in Disney. Really, I used to work for the Mouse. No really! You must believe me.

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VSeward wrote:

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Bosco wrote:
The Apple stores have become a great place to meet hot chicks. Anyone else noticed this phenomenon? I think the analysts call it the "iPod Halo Effect".

Ummmm, OK. I won't doubt it; people find each other in the strangest places. Just don't tell me you want to be married in a Mac Store.

Vern Seward

I don't know, somehow with all the white iPods around, it just seems right to me.

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acdc1174 wrote:

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VSeward wrote:

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Bosco wrote:
The Apple stores have become a great place to meet hot chicks. Anyone else noticed this phenomenon? I think the analysts call it the "iPod Halo Effect".

Ummmm, OK. I won't doubt it; people find each other in the strangest places. Just don't tell me you want to be married in a Mac Store.

Vern Seward

I don't know, somehow with all the white iPods around, it just seems right to me.

Wouldn't it be great if you could somehow link iPods? Kinda like ganging drives. Then you'd not only have the wedding music and music for your reception, but music your 10 year long party afterwards!


You can daisychain FW devices... I wonder...


Vern Seward

I'm an Orlando resident and the only thing I figure that's good at Millenia is the apple store...i think the apple store in fl mall is a superb idea because florida mall (NOT millenia) is the hotspot for both floridian and international visitors (you only see british ones at millenia), so I think Florida Mall = perfect.

As an Orlando resident who works at a Disney Resort, I can almost guarantee that Apple is putting the store at Florida Mall because of the high number of international tourists that go there. Many of the Taxi companies have a flat rate when going to the Florida mall, much like a Shuttle service, and they charge the usual rate of roughly $84/mile to go to Millennia. While it doesn't make sense to me, that seems to be the case. So more tourists go to the Florida Mall. With the low US dollar, electronic items are huge among our Eurpoean guests! You can see them walk through the lobby with new laptops, camcoderes, even printers in the box! Smart move by Apple in my opinion! Plus I don't feel like I have to gwet "dressed up" to go to the Florida Mall!

The only problem I foresee, as a former Apple Retail fella, is that the company hired management entirely from mid- to higher-end retailers such as Gap, Nordstrom, etc. This is in some ways a great idea: operate your startup retail business run by those who have the best experience in managing employees. The Mac Specialists and Genii are mostly recruited from the ranks of the Mac aficionados, college kids who can work for little money, and former Mac techs from closing Apple resellers. If the stores were run by the techies, I have no doubt there would be a disaster.
However, this is where problems are beginning to manifest. Not through malice or even conscious effort, these retail managers have a tendency to regard their sales force as largely expendable and interchangeable retail cogs. Unfortunately, it requires a particular skill set to sell a technology product, a specialized skill set different from that required to sell jeans or Faberge eggs.
Many of these skills are brought to the store by the employees upon hire: even MORE are acquired AT the store. But this fails to register with management, who are largely technologically illiterate and may not recognize these skills; and little effort is made towards employee retention. Wages are low, full-time positions with full benefits are few, and promotions are rare and seem random.
Further, your average Mac Specialist is asked not only to sell product but also to teach classes, provide one-on-one ProCare help, have superior product knowledge in addition to superlative people skills (and no offense, some Apple customers are among the WORST I've encountered in retail) and do on-the-spot troubleshooting on a number of issues ranging from straightforward iPod repair to untangling bizzare questions on video compression format conversions. All this for an average of $9/hr. w/out benefits.
Needless to say, in the time I was there I saw the most qualified Specialists leave at an alarming rate, leaving behind some rather enthusiastic but misinformed college kids and a few malingering loiterers who've made customer avoidance their own personal skill. After a year I felt impelled to leave myself, seeing no real future at the Apple Store.
And this is where the final problem arises. Anyone who's met a person whose life is dedicated to retail as a long term career must realize that these people are largely not innovators. Retail managers seem to see themselves largely as placeholders: maintaining the status quo for as long as a store is able to remain solvent, and then moving on to the next management job; be it selling soft drinks or frog dresses. By and large, as long as things are barely holding together these are people who are loathe to make a change. As a consequence, there is no upward flow of information from the retail floor to the offices in Cupertino regarding what may or may not lead to success. There is no attempt made to determine from the ground up what might constitute best practices for a retail technology sales, service and support storefront. In our thirty foot store, there was no communication between the different divisions, with the subsequent results that there were duplicated efforts, an overall lack of understanding of store policies, and frequently quite flawed product knowledge. And whereas there is a ROBUST training and certification program in place, and a powerful intranet through which to build a database of business contacts, product compatibility issues and third party product FAQs, no time is allocated by management for the fulfillment of the training programs or the implementation of any sort of knowledge sharing program other than that Knowledge Base which has been in existence since before the stores began opening.
And sadly, there is little incentive for management to communicate to corporate any information regarding the alarming attrition rate amongst the most talented employees, the discrepancies in product knowledge, the failure to implement ANY of the formalized training programs or the overall lack of communication within even the smallest stores. And sadly that is how it will remain, as management are simply following the best practices they learned at their previous big-box retailers and probably intend to agnostically carry them forward to their next.

The high rate of emploee turnover is something I had already read about somewhere before. It was then mostly attributed to low wages only. Your point about managers is very interesting, if maybe a little overgeneralizing from a (necessarily limited) personal experience:
- Due to the relative newness of the Apple Store concept, it is understandable that they have to hire managers out of the available pool of people with this type of experience … but
- I'm sure managers must go through a fairly thorough technical training program before being given such a primordial position. We all know, though, that bad habits are much easier acquiring than getting rid of … and many may get back into an established routine after a while …
- Manager is what its name implies: an administrative position. In my personal experience, the best managers to work with are "hands on" managers, people who don't mind sporting a salesman uniform and working the floor a few hours a day. This gives them an opportunity to go through the same customer contact as their team, and identify its peculiarities. It also gives them an opportunity to check on individual salesmen's performance, as they work side by side with them, spotting areas of weakness to be corrected, and areas of strength to be learned from … as they recognize that even a manager can learn from his/her underlings.

I wonder if the manager turnover rate is also high … which could be both a good and a bad thing, depending on who goes and who replaces them …
Apple stores haven't been in existence long enough to talk about "tradition" yet …
I wonder if there is a program geared toward providing extra training to regular salesmen, so they could be promoted to Genius, and then a business management program for Geniuses, so they could get promoted, if they so wish, to a manager position, as it seems obvious to me that internal training and promotion is often the best way to ensure quality staffing and the staff's understanding of, and compliance with, company policies.
Also, does Apple carry a program of "Secret Shoppers", who come in to inspect the stores and ensure that the customer experience is up to par ?

Some interesting observations.

I have no direct, personal experince with how management is handled, trained, and used in Apple Stores. I can say that the employees at My Little Apple Store do change hands often enough, but there is a core group that have remained long enough for me to get familiar with and learn their names. The manager has been the same person for quite some time now.

I have worked in retail, however, so I know that much of what you say, in general, can be said about any retail store, not just Apple's. The big difference, I believe, is that most folks who work at Apple stores like working there, at least until the shine of the experience wears off.

One of the problems with high turn over is that repeat customers who had a good experience with a sales person the first time, will want to deal with that person again. When I was in retail I had customers who would only come in on the days I worked. I don't know how much of that happens at Apple stores, but I can see that some may be put off by a constant change of faces.

Vern Seward

Same here. When I worked in sales (furniture = expensive items), I had a number of customers who asked me what my day off was, so they wouldn't come back then and could be sure they dealt with me when they returned with their spouse to close the sale, which was nice, as I was on commission and didn't have to split it with anyone … Then, when I worked in restaurants, many of my customers would follow me from restaurant to restaurant and request my station … and usually tip me very generously.
Funny thing is the furniture store management didn't like that ! Restaurants, though, generally encouraged it …

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jacrav wrote:
Same here. When I worked in sales (furniture = expensive items), I had a number of customers who asked me what my day off was, so they wouldn't come back then and could be sure they dealt with me when they returned with their spouse to close the sale, which was nice, as I was on commission and didn't have to split it with anyone … Then, when I worked in restaurants, many of my customers would follow me from restaurant to restaurant and request my station … and usually tip me very generously.
Funny thing is the furniture store management didn't like that ! Restaurants, though, generally encouraged it …

I had the same reaction in the electronics store I worked in. Management seem to think I was giving something away, or dealing under the table. They never said as much, not openly, but I got a lot of snide remarks that hinted at their thoughts. Was weird because I was part-time and sold as much stuff as the full time guys, you'd think management would be happy.

The one thing I wouldn't do, which I guess was the real reason management was uncomfortable with me was that I wouldn't lie to make a sale. If something was a piece of crap I say as much, or at least point out the problems so that people would know what they were getting into. I would also not sell someone up if what they wanted was the lower priced item. I ignored spiffs and incentives.

And I treated everyone, regardless of who they were, or how they were dressed, with respect. The store I worked in was frequented by a lot of sharecroppers, many of whom were poorly educated and dressed shabily. Other sales people would avoid them, but I had no problem helping them. The other guys were always surprised when I'd make a fairly high ticket sale to one of these migrants.

Ahh, those were the days....


Vern Seward

In the first restaurant (a high-class French restaurant in Richmond, Va), a customer sat down with his wife and told me: "I'm a redneck, and I don't know anything about French food. You make our order". I chose Chateaubriand for two, carved tableside, served with Bearnaise sauce, with a bottle of nice Bordeaux wine. These people were delighted, paid their $60 meal with a $100 bill, asked me for my name and left after shaking my hand … $40 tip–in the 70s !
They became regular customers of mine, coming once a week with another couple. The restaurant owner's wife would laugh as they wouldn't have anyone else wait on them. Man owned a trucking company, probably made millions … and wanted to learn about French food. Ended up learning quite a bit, too … and also about good wine …

In the first restaurant (a high-class French restaurant in Richmond, Va), a customer sat down with his wife and told me: "I'm a redneck, and I don't know anything about French food. You make our order". I chose Chateaubriand for two, carved tableside, served with Bearnaise sauce, with a bottle of nice Bordeaux wine. These people were delighted, paid their $60 meal with a $100 bill, asked me for my name and left after shaking my hand … $40 tip–in the 70s !
They became regular customers of mine, coming once a week with another couple. The restaurant owner's wife would laugh as they wouldn't have anyone else wait on them. Man owned a trucking company, probably made millions … and wanted to learn about French food. Ended up learning quite a bit, too … and also about good wine …
The furniture store, though, had a policy that if you hadn't closed a sale within ten minutes, you called a manager, who would come and take over … and usually offer an additional discount or a lower quality substitute for what the customers wanted. I didn't quite toe the line, spending sometimes an hour or more with the customers, but ending up selling nice stuff that they would enjoy for a long time !

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jacrav wrote:
In the first restaurant (a high-class French restaurant in Richmond, Va), a customer sat down with his wife and told me: "I'm a redneck, and I don't know anything about French food. You make our order". I chose Chateaubriand for two, carved tableside, served with Bearnaise sauce, with a bottle of nice Bordeaux wine. These people were delighted, paid their $60 meal with a $100 bill, asked me for my name and left after shaking my hand … $40 tip–in the 70s !
They became regular customers of mine, coming once a week with another couple. The restaurant owner's wife would laugh as they wouldn't have anyone else wait on them. Man owned a trucking company, probably made millions … and wanted to learn about French food. Ended up learning quite a bit, too … and also about good wine …
The furniture store, though, had a policy that if you hadn't closed a sale within ten minutes, you called a manager, who would come and take over … and usually offer an additional discount or a lower quality substitute for what the customers wanted. I didn't quite toe the line, spending sometimes an hour or more with the customers, but ending up selling nice stuff that they would enjoy for a long time !

This isn't the proper place to do this but...

Your redneck story reminded me of another incident in the electronics store. The store I worked in was in central North Carolina, in the mid-70's; just to give you an idea of the social ambiance.

I was the only Black guy in the store, and one of 2 people manning the counter when an elderly White man came in.

I asked him if I could help him and he said the following: "Son, I know you are trying to do your job, but I prefer to have that White guy over there wait on me."

I took no offense and called to ohter sales person over. The old guy went away happy and stop to say thanks to me on the way out.

The next time he came in he asked for me. And ask for me everytime he came in.

Just interesting people.

Vern Seward

RichB have you heard of ANYONE that techs a MAC out this way? We are in the dunes, in NW Indiana. We are here visiting and really don't want to have to drive all the way to Chicago to have someone take a look at our G5. Is there a website, blog etc that lists techs in more rural areas? Anyone help? It's beeping at us and NOT happy. And Rich as for as your growth studies go for this area, it seems like this would be a great place for a MAC store. Bass Pro Shops just opened here and they DO NOT move into an area unless there is rapid growth and deep pockets. There must be a lot of disposable income here near the Lake for toys.