First on TMO - Apple Readying Dual-Core G5 PowerMacs, New G4 PBs & G5 mini, Analyst Claims
by , 11:15 AM EDT, August 15th, 2005
Investment banking concern Caris & Co. said Monday it believes Apple Computer will most likely release new G5 PowerMacs based on IBM's dual-core 970 PowerPC processor, as well as a G5 Mac mini and faster G4 PowerBooks on September 20 at Apple Expo 2005 in Paris.
In a research note obtained by The Mac Observer, analyst Mark Stahlman wrote, "we believe that Apple is now preparing a broad array of new PowerPC-based Macs and that these new models are likely to support further expansion of the high value-added Mac franchise.
"We believe that Apple is preparing new G5 PowerMacs based on IBM’s dual-core 970 PPC, G5 Mac Minis based on a new IBM low-power processor, and new G4 PowerBooks based on next generation processors from Freescale Semiconductors."
Mr. Stahlman's prediction on G5-based mini's comes less than a month after the company revamped the low-cost Mac line by adding a top-line G4 1.42 gigahertz model with 80 gigabyte hard drive and SuperDrive for $699. The July 26th announcement did not include a processor speed increase since Apple initially came out with the mini last January. Historically, Apple rarely upgrades Macs within a minimum of eight months.
Mr. Stahlman also said he believes the new G4 PowerBooks will "likely be based on the Freescale 7448 processor, potentially running as fast as 2GHz" and that possible new "dual-core PPC systems will likely be used to build 4x CPU Macs – so called “dual dual” machines."
He said "the most likely timing of at least some of these announcements is the Jobs keynote on September 20th at Apple Expo 2005 in Paris, but that given the number of new products in the pipeline, there is a possibility that some will be introduced before the Paris event, however."
The Wall Street analyst also said there are some indications that the new PowerBooks may add "high- definition screens as well," citing Apple's acknowledgment that 2005 was “the year of high-def."
"Apple has yet to deliver HD resolution (i.e., 1920x1200 native) in a PowerBook," he wrote. "With Sony pushing the HDV recording format into consumer Handycams (initially in Japan), the ability to display (and edit) 1080i pictures is becoming necessary."
Mr. Stahlman said he is "increasingly confident" Apple will soon release a video-based iPod despite Apple denials.
"Sony’s surprising success (even to itself) with video on the handheld PlayStation Portable combined with the earlier-than-expected decline in DVD sales has apparently made Hollywood much more receptive to new video formats," he wrote. "Second generation Portable Media Players like Creative Labs’ Zen Vision – which supports video, photo and music with a 30GB hard-drive – are also likely to accelerate Apple’s video iPod plans."
Predicting further developments, he said he believes that iTunes may be upgraded to support video before the video iPod appears and that color screens will be announced for the iPod Mini. He also said "Apple is lining up additional partners for iTunes, as jockeying for position in music, etc. downloading has become intense."
Mr. Stahlman also upgraded Apple stock to 'Above Average' from 'Average.'
The only way Apple will release a dual core Power Mac would be to have two dual core processors for a quad core machine. Other wise Apple would take a step backwards by going to a 2.5 dual core 970. If IBM can provide Apple with 3.0 Ghz dual 970s, then may be you have a point.
I could see a dual core Mac Mini running at 2.5 Ghz, but that would present a problem with cooling. I also believe a dual core Mac Mini of anykind would be a hot selling product. This would give Apple to product they need to compete against the likes of a xBox 360.
Wouldn't that just be the final irony - if Apple finally hit 3.0GHz with a PPC...right before they dumped 'em!
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Guest wrote: The only way Apple will release a dual core Power Mac would be to have two dual core processors for a quad core machine. Other wise Apple would take a step backwards by going to a 2.5 dual core 970. If IBM can provide Apple with 3.0 Ghz dual 970s, then may be you have a point.
CloseViewName:geoduckPosts: 1721Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:23 pmSubject:
The details may not be spot on but all in all upgrades along these lines make sense. They would have been in the engineering pipeline for some time now, certainly preceding the Intel Announcement, and it's still a long way from here to Intel. Dual Processor Minis though seem like a stretch. Maybe 2Ghz single but without a fan it would be very hard to do DP IMHO.
CloseViewName:Guest Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:24 pmSubject:
there will no way be a G5 mini at this time doing that will prevent people from bying the more expensive apple products. they could go with a really high end mini just poping it onto the end of the mini lineup and charge alot more for it. $899? it just seems like on of thoes things that just catch on fire, espically when you just dont want it too.
I was almost fished in until I read about the "G5 Mini." So we'll get a G5 Mini, but no G5 PowerBook, eh? Will they be imported from the planet Gallifrey? Because this new Mini must actually be a TARDIS, what with our own primitive physics and all.
It's possible to get a single G5 mini without a G5 Powerbook, because the G5 mini needs to be plugged in. The power draw for a G5 and display might cause a Powerbook to have unacceptable battery life, or a need for a significantly larger battery that does not fit in a Powerbook form factor.
Along these lines, note that a single G5 can fit in a cramped (but larger than the mini) space without liquid cooling in a plugged-in iMac. Given the year that has passed as well as the lower/variable powered chip/algorithm that IBM was working on, Apple may have figured out how to fit it in an even smaller powered space.
"he said he believes that iTunes may be upgraded to support video before the video iPod appears"
iTunes has been supporting video for quite a while now!
So where is this portable video player?
I don't think that the iPod video will be the big product announcement. I believe they will add video support, but they have to have something better suited for video playback up their sleeve..
If there is a single G5 mini, it will be priced much higher than $699, otherwise, it will cannibalize iMac sales. The $999 price seems most likely given likely demand.
A dual-core G4 Powerbook would also be required to minimize such a mini cannibalizing Powerbook sales.
Then the matrix would look like:
consumer - single core
professional - dual core
portables - G4
desktops - G5
until the Intel versions arrive.
CloseViewName:Guest Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:33 pmSubject:
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Biff wrote: Dual-core Mac Mini!?!? I can't even see a single core G5 Mini! Good lord. You won't even see dual-core iMacs!
People need to learn to read. Here is the correct parsing of the quote:
"We believe that Apple is preparing
- new G5 PowerMacs based on IBM’s dual-core 970 PPC,
- G5 Mac Minis based on a new IBM low-power processor, and
- new G4 PowerBooks based on next generation processors from Freescale Semiconductors."
The dual core PPC is for G5 POWERMAC and the G5 Mac minis are based on an UNNAMED, new IBM low-power processor.
Why would a Mac mini cannibalize Powerbook sales? The appeal of a Powerbook is, of course, its portability and the ability to use it on the road. A mini is "portable" only in the sense that it is small, but you'd also have to lug around a monitor, and it's not battery operated.
I haven't seen any of the speed specs on the Intel dual core products. What if IBM's dual core processors ran faster than the Intel dual cores? That's the ultimate stick.
when one has their shotgun loaded with soooooooo much hypothetical ammo, something just MAY hit a nominal target - I notice that he neglected to mention the rumors coming from the middle east about the marvelous, ground breaking, forward looking fire wire turkish coffee machine, the iJava, already in the pipelines from a little known palestinian coffee shop owner on the gaza strip. Not to be outdone, some peeps in Haifa have the new ipod accessory, the iBagel, that not only makes egg bagels, but you can watch them being made on the iPodPhoto color screen while listening to some up state new york klez tunes.
Might I suggest that someone with a really great, close, loving pal who works for pixar, that you ask him (saying you will never breathe a word of what he tells you to a soul, living OR defunct), what kind of laptop they were issued months ago and what its specs are - make sure you are seated when he tells you (oh, yeah, and invite us to the canadian wedding)
It's continually entertaining to read the nonsense that come's out of analyst's rear-ends which pretend to be the brain section.
G5 Mac Mini? Please, I wouldn't trust this guy to be in charge of my 5-year-old's piggy bank.
With regards to Macs, excluding iPod and other stuff, one can really only say "The Powerbook G4 is likely to be updated at the end of September, possibly the iMac g5 and possibly the PowerMac G5"
Anything other than this sentence is pure and unadulterated speculation, or seriously illegal insider trading knowledge.
I have no insider knowledge so I can't say that Stahlman is right but what he anticipates can be found by anyone doing research on IBM and Apple and putting it together.
Facts: Jobs said at WWDC that there would be great PowerPC products to come. Apple provided a very conservative revenue projection for this Jul-Sep quarter, citing Intel transition concerns. Apple left a gap of almost a year before Intel-based products arrive - first for consumer products, then for Pro products.
Given these 3 points, one can say: There must be new PowerPC products to come. Those products will arrive no earlier than near the end of the quarter (Sept). Those products will allow for additional updates before Intel-based products arrive - 1 or 2 for consumer Macs, 2 or 3 for Pro Macs. None of the updates will require major internal system redesigns given the short life.
Now fill in some other pieces such as widescreen and HD-resolutions, and IBM's and Freescale's announced product availability, and you can project out a good deal of the Apple upgrades to come:
- Powerbook moves to dual-core G4s (announced by Freescale) and 17" HD-resolution (Taiwan rumor and Jobs' year of HD) at high end. Subsequent update will use faster dual-core chips.
- iBook can then move to 1.5 and maybe 1.67 GHz G4s, with 15" widescreen (Taiwan rumor) at high end
- PowerMac moves to dual dual-core G5s (announced by IBM). Subsequent update will use faster dual-core chips.
- iMac can then move to 2.0 and 2.3, and then 2.3 and 2.7 GHz G5s, with 20" or 23" HD-resolution (Jobs' year of HD) at high end
- Mac mini can move eventually to 1.67 GHz G4s. Or low-power G5 (announced by IBM) - G5s are a stretch as there is little to suggest it, except for the guest who thinks the plugged-in mini would not have a battery issue; that being what prevents G5s in the Powerbook.
The random nature of the Tardis strikes again! lol.
I think most of the updates are fairly predictable mentioned in the article above. Although it doesnt make much sense for Apple to start plowing lots of time, effort and money into releasing loads of new machines with the swap over to Intel 4 months away.
Conceeding that, IBM carnt of been happy with Apple leaving them. Maybe Apple have done some deal with IBM saying that they'd complete some more product refreshes before begining the transition period to Intel. So I can see some of the stuff happening but not all. It just wont make financial sense.
G5 Mini Daul Core ? It would basically be a Tardis if it were that powerful!
Jobs said the swap over to Intel will start before WWDC 2006 but doesn't finish until mid-2007. So it may not start until May, and then first for the G4 Macs according to the conference call. That makes sense because the G4s are the ones that are falling behind in performance and have no path to G5s.
I don't expect to see G5 iMacs and PowerMacs switch over to Intel until January 2007 at the earliest. 16 months is a very long time if there are no refreshes of the line. For a long time, the rumor mill has said that Apple had samples of the dual-core G5 chip. It seems it's more a matter of waiting until those chips were reliably available in production quantities.
It's really only two new machines - dual-core G4 PB and dual-core G5 PMac - that I think will happen.
It's perfectly reasonable to have a G5 mini while still having a G4 powerbook for one reason... enclosure. Assuming they choose not to update the enclosures before they go Intel, it may just be that they can't fit a G5 into the 1" thick powerbook.
Additionally, it's pretty clear that the mini and the iBook share many internal components, and two things about the recent bumps suggest there may be bigger changes in store for the mini... one, the mini and the iBook no longer share a video card design, in fact the mini is now the only mac that uses a Radeon 9200. From a convenience sake alone I would have thought they'd bump it to 9550 with the iBook... two, there's nothing on the "new" mini you couldn't have gotten on the old mini, they just shuffled the pricing and RAM. They literally changed nothing in the architecture.
I'm not saying any of this will appear, I'm saying this is why a G5 mini is possible, and why they might not have a G5 powerbook.
As for new PPC products before the Intel switch in general... it seems that Apple made the Intel decision rather quickly, so, they would have been developing new PPC products for some time. Sure, some of these projects might get scrapped, but some of them may have been far enough along to make it worth finishing them. The suggestions the analyst makes here all seem like reasonable developments in the product evolution, and may have indeed been being designed a year ago. Why not go ahead and ship them to keep sales from flagging while everyone holds their breath for intel. I know, I for one had been considering buying a low end tide-me-over machine, but if there's an actual improvement in the powerbook line up (not that somewhat less than awe inspiring speed bump from January), I won't wait.
Biff wrote: Dual-core Mac Mini!?!? I can't even see a single core G5 Mini! Good lord. You won't even see dual-core iMacs!
People need to learn to read. Here is the correct parsing of the quote:
"We believe that Apple is preparing
- new G5 PowerMacs based on IBM’s dual-core 970 PPC,
- G5 Mac Minis based on a new IBM low-power processor, and
- new G4 PowerBooks based on next generation processors from Freescale Semiconductors."
The dual core PPC is for G5 POWERMAC and the G5 Mac minis are based on an UNNAMED, new IBM low-power processor.
Sorry I should have bothered to quote the 2nd post. It was to that which I was referring, not the story. I didn't mean to confuse you. But thanks for your in depth analysis of the original story. Very thought provoking. You are a true scholar.
I truely believe that Apple Expo Paris will bring its surprises:
- updated PowerBook G4, surely... Apple needs a boost in the portable range before the end of the year, the recently updated iBooks are "fair". I hope to see 7448 CPUs up to 1.8GHz and maybe new screens 13.3"(1280x800), 15" (1440x900) and HD17" (1920x1200).
- DualCore PM G5, maybe... but I think it's too soon, I'd like too see a DualCore 2.5GHz, Dual-DualCore 2.0GHz and a Dual-DualCore 2.5GHz at the top, but it's likely to be available early '06 (MWSF).
- G5 mini?, I don't think so! The Mac mini is the cheapest Mac ever! It won't get a G5 soon, maybe never... But, there were some talks about an headless iMac a few weeks ago, mini-tower or small desktop (but bigger than the mini), something in the $1000 range... Maybe for AEP or MWSF... we'll see!
It's obvious that Apple will release dual-core Power Macs. That's just common sense. I hear a lot of people talking about how "they would need to use two processors to be faster!", as if that's reason not to upgrade. Apple already uses two processors in their Power Macs. Why would they EVER go back to one? The purpose of multiple cores is not to eliminate the need for multiple processors; it's just to make everything MUCH MUCH faster. So I'm sure any new dual-core Power Macs will have two processers — just as this article claims.
As for the Minis, that's a bit surprising, but it could be done. Along with the dual-core G5s, IBM also introduced a (single-core) low-power G5. IIRC, it currently only runs at 1.6GHz, but that would still be a definite step up for the Mini. The chip uses about the same power as the current G4s (give or take). In theory it would also be suitable for the PowerBook, butthat's bound to take more time to design that the Mini would. It's also possible a a new PowerBook will use Freescale's upcoming dual-core G4. That would probably be a good bit faster than any low-power G5 IBM could offer.
But I don't think it would make sense to update the Mini without also updating the eMac. It'd be strange to have the Mini leap-frog its big brother. But hey, there's no reason they couldn't release a G5 eMac, too. It'd be a lot easier than squeezing a G5 into a Mini, that's for sure. I just sort of figured that if they were going to release a G5 eMac, they would've done it by now; after all, the eMac's form doesn't require the low-power version of the G5. It'd be easier to fit a G5 into the eMac's case than it was to fit it into the iMac, which they already did.
Financial analysts know little about finance (I should know - I have a PhD in the area), and much much less about computers. I can't believe you print this drivel. It's garbage. A G5 Mac Mini 30 days after they were updated -= hahahaha ahaha hhahaha ha ahahaha haha hahahahaha.
And yet you print this stuff?
the G5 mini would be a bit stange to me. As we look at the switch to intel it seems the first models to be using them are the cheapest G4 models. So it is already sead that the mini would be one of the first to use intel.
BUT: the first intels to be used by then could possibly be a dual-core, but remains a 32 BIT cpu. So the thing is: WHY upgrade to 64 BIT when later on it wil switch back to 32 with the intel ?
To the powerbook we can conclude that there are much speculations to it's changes. I might be buying one if the enhancements are worth it. For now the speed of the G4 is rediculous. When i saw the speed-bump on the iBook, I almost cried. According tot the tests of barefeats the new models could be 1 or 2 secs faster on a 2 minute processing. WTF?
This speedbump for the powerbook hopefully is worth it. But is the new G4 really have the double of cache then the current it could be alright.
if you look at the article of appleInsider they first claimed the powerbook would get a cpu-boost of 300 MHz. Now they claim it is a 30 MHz. if it will be a 30 MHZ bump i think i will cry bad. Hopefully the dual core and increased cache could make up to this. Also would the DDR2 ram be much appreciated.
About the PowerMac: i hope the new G5's cancel the need for liquid-cooling. I know someone with a dual 2.7 and it happens alot that after a small time of doing nothing the mac just shuts down beceause of heat-problems.
CloseViewName:Guest Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:27 pmSubject:
I agree with the comment about it sounding like the analyst had been reading Appleinsider. Are these predictions actually based on inside Apple sources or are they simply educated guesses? This story does not say one way or the other.
Without knowing how credible the report is, the story is worth the paper it is printed on. But it is fun to read, and to my thinking, it is most interesting is the assertion that Apple will continue to have PPC product coming out, especially at the low and the high end.
I agree with the comment about it sounding like the analyst had been reading Appleinsider. Are these predictions actually based on inside Apple sources or are they simply educated guesses? This story does not say one way or the other.
Without knowing how credible the report is, the story is worth the paper it is printed on. But it is fun to read, and to my thinking, it is most interesting is the assertion that Apple will continue to have PPC product coming out, especially at the low AND the high end.
CloseViewName:Guest Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:38 pmSubject:
not going to happen. theres no logical basis to continue supporting ibm with the implementation and coding of dual core ppc chips into the already waning g5 product line. with intel introductions in less than a year this is an unlikely event. furthermore the mini just recently saw an update, and the likelyhood that they have developed a way to minimize the heat issue that plagued the g5 imacs and scale it to the size of a mini is very minimal. neither of these predictions will come true, and the only *likely* upgrade that will be seen is in the PB line
This isn't public knowledge, but IBM does have 3GHz 970 cores and has offered them to Apple, along with the Cell processor. Even the low power 970's for notebooks were offered to them before such a thing was publically known to exist. Look elsewhere for reasons behind Apples move to Intel. IBM are the big boys here, whereas Apple is the one burning their bridges and spreading FUD.
CloseViewName:Guest Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:00 amSubject: eMac?
I tend to agree with you... the situation that the eMac finds itself is a little strange. I would bet that if the Mac mini's get get a G5, then the eMac would be dropped. The eMac with it's CRT is so obviously dated I doubt it'll get an upgrade now. However, I don't think the Mac mini's will get a G5... the next processor for the Mac mini will be a Pentium M.
Just having some 3ghz parts is not enough. part of IBM's problem is that they didn't have the quantity that tapple needed to announce a product and the ability to continue to supply the needed part.
people think that those new macs are far fetched but you have to know what what apple is standing.
they will move to anew proccesor next year. and they have to be THE most attractive right now, becuase the focus is very high on them these days.
they have to show that everything is at high gear, and they are not just waiting for intel.
so the g5 on the minis seems very possible along with the rest of the upgrades simply becuase they have to show they are still the best and , plus, they have to convince consumers to buy now a g5 and not wait for a pentium-m .
they just need to raid the market with lots of macs as possible to draw as much attention as possible.
so the analyst may be 100% right , including the pre-expo intro to new macs beyond what we may expect.
peronally i think that steve jobs is in love with PPC proccesors and he knows that they are superior in the way they are designed. but, he know that the "regular" pc consumers need to compare them to what they know already which is the intel proccessors, so steve knows they are the shot he needs to go with.
he needs more mobile products now !, and intel can give him that. i don't think he's happy to move to intel , but theres no choice if he wants a variety of cpus.
as a mac fan , i am going to get the most affordable ppc based mac i can get becuase i will get a mac with intel only in about 4 years so it will overcome all the problems involved the transition and only after i'll try it and see that its good.
a cpu DOES matter to me.
i chose apple becasue of the combo of OS-CPU/HARDWARE casue its a flawless system.
so post expo paris i will get one deskstop system.
my notion prediction is (and its just a notion) that unless intel will mac a pure RISC cpu for apple (dont forget that there is a universal binary) apple may go back in 10 years to IBM again when ibm will give the top notch cpus.
and just think about this : why universal binary ?, i mean they could recompile to x86 alone , right ?
the universal binary may be , becuase in the future, the cpu platform may change for the whole line , or for pro line only - aka , high end machines with super multi core ibm chip.
who knows. its just my notion, not based on anything really i admit.
i just feel so bad with the transition. i love my apple becuse its different and now i will have a regular pc with the different of the os.
the os is indeed the soul of an apple. but with now good-in shape body , the souls looses its greatness.
Note that Apple now bundles QuickTime and iTunes together in the one download for Windows users. Seems to me they will morph into a Windows Media Player kind of application - iPlay anyone?
