Apple makes money; Gateway profits down 25%

  • Posted: 14 January 2002 12:43 PM #31

    On 2002-01-14 15:07, pagefault wrote:
    Mac users seem to refuse to recognize any innovation anywhere else.

    Like what?  Honestly, I can’t recall the last time Microsoft did something that I thought was “innovative”—or even a simple “I wish I could get that for my Mac.”

    Those who live in glass houses, built by Xerox PARC, should at least be more careful when throwing stones.

    You do know that Apple bought the rights to the Xerox PARC GUI work, right?  $1 million in stock options, which eventually snowballed into $16 million for Xerox, IIRC.

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  • Posted: 14 January 2002 01:32 PM #32

    On 2002-01-14 16:43, rjung wrote:
    You do know that Apple bought the rights to the Xerox PARC GUI work, right?  $1 million in stock options, which eventually snowballed into $16 million for Xerox, IIRC.

    Bought, stole, neither one shows up in my thesaurus as ‘innovate’ or ‘created’.

    Microsoft may or may not have come up with any innovations of any value.  That is subjective.  255 character filename support, preemptive multithreaded multitasking, right-click drag and drop gives copy, move and create shortcut option, dynamic memory allocation, etc.  I don’t have time to do a comparative analysis.  There are also innovations for the Windows platform that have nothing to do with Microsoft.  Compaq put all kinds of internet buttons and other controls on the keyboard, Sony had a small form factor CPU and a flat panel LCD some time ago and is now offering a stylus based tablet with one of their systems.  Back in 95 I got an FM tuner card for my PC and my roommate, a Mac diehard, ooh-ed and aah-ed over it for weeks, explaining that the same was not available to him.  Innovation is all around you.

         
  • Posted: 14 January 2002 01:40 PM #33

    Forgot to log in again…

         
  • Posted: 14 January 2002 01:52 PM #34

    Apple thought you might like these ‘innovations’ which I have enjoyed for years on my Windows box:

    Long filenames below icons wrap to a second line.

    In a window’s column view, you can drag to resize the columns to give you a better view of long filenames.

    Mouse-free operation allows you to access everything with keyboard shortcuts.

    Of course, they still see no value in things like cycling through applications using Alt-Tab.

    I’m not here to say Windows is better, just that Apple has hardly cornered the market on innovation and Microsoft is not the only one using ideas that originated elsewhere.

     

         
  • Posted: 14 January 2002 02:07 PM #35

    I have to agree with Pagefault on this. Apple is not a great hardware innovator in all areas. Especially in adopting either system bus or RAM technology. There are several examples of much faster technology at work on the PC side right now.

    It was wise for Apple to sit back and let competing standards fight it out in the PC world and adopt the winner. (remember the days of nubus and other technology not supported by the mainstream) But they need to make a move soon. G4 (and maybe G5!) chips have progressed to the point that both the system bus and memory are the bottlenecks to speed.
    Not that I’m complaining about the price of PC133 DIMMs.

    -Dan

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  • Posted: 14 January 2002 02:44 PM #36

    Well, I don’t think anyone is seriously implying that Apple is the only one that is involved in any innovation.

    For example: The PowerBook 100 was one of (if not the) first of the modern-layout laptops. Book shaped, trackball near the front, keyboard at the back, etc. The thing is, Apple hired Sony to take the old Mac Portable, and shrink it down into something smaller, and came up with the 100.

    Most of the things mentioned were there because of neccessity. Full keyboard navigation was neccessary in the days of Windows 3.1, because a lot of people still didn’t have mice. You had to be able to navigate with the keyboard, and Alt-Tab was part of this. People got used to (and liked) this functionality, which is why it is still used in Windows today. (Not that you’d want to unplug the mouse from your PC and do it all with the keyboard, but still…) Plus, the alt-tab feature has been available in the Mac OS since OS8.6 or 9. With third-party software, you can go back as far as System 7.1 I believe.

    As far as long file names go, the Mac OS had long file name support before Windows. It’s just that when they finally updated Windows to include long file name support, they made even longer file names supported. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t *nix have long file name support before anyone?

    Anyway, sure a lot of companies besides Apple innovate. It’s just that Apple seems more willing to risk their neck to put something newer and better out there, even if people like Michael Dell and Bill Gates turn around a few years later, release the same product/feature, and claim innovation.

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  • Posted: 14 January 2002 03:11 PM #37

    It’s just that Apple seems more willing to risk their neck to put something newer and better out there…

    I can agree with that, in most cases. 

     

         
  • Posted: 14 January 2002 03:30 PM #38

    Most of the things mentioned were there because of neccessity.

    Necessity is the mother of invention.

    Or so I have heard.

    I know there have always been things I envied about the Mac, and if you caught him on the right night, even Mr. Chaffin has been known to admire aspects of Windows that were unavailable (at the time) on a Mac.  My old roommate used to get so pissed (back in 95 or 96) when he would see me on my PC with 8 downloads going at the same time.

    The greatest tragedy though, is that so many people I know, including myself at times, are so put off by the attitude we encounter when we talk to Mac users.  I can promise you this: if you want people to switch to Mac, calling them idiots for liking their Wintel boxes ain’t tha way ta do it.

     

     

    <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pagefault on 2002-01-14 19:30 ]</font>

    <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pagefault on 2002-01-14 19:31 ]</font>

         
  • Posted: 14 January 2002 03:34 PM #39

    Add a spell check to these threads, now that would be innovative!

         
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    Posted: 14 January 2002 03:46 PM #40

    Pagefault, built in spell checking is coming in the next rev to this forum engine.  The 2.0 version of phpBB has some really outstanding new features.  The developers are at Release Candidate 2, so I am hoping for a final release that we can adopt soon™.

    Also, OS X has system wide spell checking that OmniWeb uses.  In fact, that’s the only reason my own posts are error free as they are. 

    I agree with you that calling Windows users lemmings and idiots (both of which I have done to greater or lesser degrees in my own writing) is not necessarily going to win many converts, but it gets frustrating at times to see the way in which so many people embrace what we (I) consider to be an inferior OS.  You and I, for instance, have both commented in private on how so many Windows users consider it a normal part of owning a PC to pay someone US$80 to reinstall Windows about once a year.

    In other words, lashing out behooves no one, but the frustration that so many of us feel on occasion is somewhat understandable. That said, it’s great to get the perspective of someone like you who is knowledgeable of the Windows world but interested in learning about other platforms too.  Hopefully you have found these forums to be pretty civilized (our article comments are often MUCH less civilized because they are not moderated ).

    Lastly, welcome to our forums, and it’s good to hear from you again.  I’ll be answering your e-mail tonight or tomorrow.

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  • Posted: 14 January 2002 04:06 PM #41

    On 2002-01-14 19:46, Bryan wrote:
    Pagefault, built in spell checking is coming in the next rev to this forum engine.  The 2.0 version of phpBB has some really outstanding new features.  The developers are at Release Candidate 2, so I am hoping for a final release that we can adopt soon™.

    Yes! I miss SpellTools when using Linux or Windows… (Although I’m sure that functionality could be added to Linux if I had a clue as to what I was doing. )

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  • Posted: 14 January 2002 04:16 PM #42

    The spell check will be cool.  I won’t even tell everyone you stole my idea.  Heh.

    Windows has system wide spell checking too: copy and paste into a word doc.

    Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    Indeed, there is an endless source of frustration in the PC world and I continue to use that frustration to pay my bills.  I do wonder, though, how different the world might be today, if there were still Mac clones on the market.  I do not know that Microsoft and Apple are as different as everyone thinks.

         
  • Posted: 14 January 2002 05:14 PM #43

    Indeed, there is an endless source of frustration in the PC world and I continue to use that frustration to pay my bills.  I do wonder, though, how different the world might be today, if there were still Mac clones on the market.  I do not know that Microsoft and Apple are as different as everyone thinks.

     

    The companies are fundamentally different in the way that they view and support the independent work of thousands of engineers and programmers who make up the Open Source community. While Microsoft has chosen to declare “war” on the Open Source movement, Apple has chosen to embrace it. Apple values the independent work of thousands of talented people who wish to contribute their knowledge and skill at no cost for the betterment of scoiety and to foster continued innovation in the computing world.

    I believe Microsoft has called the Open Source movement a cancer and a great danger to their business. Microsoft has refused to release a version of Office for Linux.

     

         
  • Posted: 15 January 2002 06:08 AM #44

    The companies are fundamentally different in the way that they view and support the independent work of thousands of engineers and programmers who make up the Open Source community.

    Indeed, they are fundamentally different in any number of ways, but not in every way. 

    Microsoft uses unfair licensing agreements to try to force you to use Windows if you want to use the PC platform hardware (this has changed a little lately).  Apple manufactures the hardware and says that if you want to use it, you must get Mac OS with it (this too may have changed, but I do not recall seeing a Mac ship without Mac OS).  Apple also says that if you want to run Mac OS, you must buy Apple hardware. 

    Microsoft bundled Internet Explorer with Windows when the internet really started to gain momentum, creating a barrier to entry for Netscape and probably many others.  Apple is now bundling any number of iMultimedia apps with the iMac, each of which has a number of competing products on the open market. 

    The difference here, is that Apple does not have a large enough market share for this behavior to raise any eyebrows.  Rest assured, if Microsoft could find a way to ‘own’ the PC platform, and then decided they would be the only ones to manufacture it and by the way, they are now going to bundle all of this software on it too, we’d all be looking to kill someone.

     

    <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pagefault on 2002-01-15 10:09 ]</font>

         
  • Posted: 15 January 2002 06:21 AM #45

    Just to get back on track briefly, I would like to add that the Gateway store I went into made me feel incredibly uncomfortable.  I did not feel like I belonged there, or like I was supposed to walk around and browse.  The atmosphere created made me feel like computer purchases are very complicated and I’d better just wait for one of these very professional, educated people to come help me.  For a brief moment, I felt like I had no idea what a computer was, or how to use one, or how to tell one from another.  My gut feeling is that if I did not know computers, I would run from the Gateway store as fast as my legs could carry me.  As it is, I will never go back to one.