Extell,

I wanted to correct some of the statements you have made. First of all you stated that to entirely “skin” the MacOS, one has to download Kaleidoscope (an entirely different program). This is not true. Since 8.6 or so (not really sure) Apple has included the ability to change the appearance in the Appearance control panel. It is true that the only appearance they include is “platinum,” so you would have to visit a web site to download appearances. But you would not need an entirely new program to do this. Just drop the appearance in the Theme files folder found in the appearance folder in the system folder.
Also, there is are several TV tuners for the mac. The one I would recommend (though I don’t own it) is at Formac.com
And lastly, I’m not sure if they still sell these, but you can buy a product called Wired4DVD. It provides hardware decoding for your mac, visit xlr8yourmac.com for more details.
As for the comments on the two operating systems, I know the reason I use the MacOS is purely it is what I have used since I was about 7. I am perfectly happy with it, and I have no plans to switch sides any time soon. Both the MacOS and Windows will serve the average user equally, enabling them to do what they wish.

I hope all of this makes sense, it is late and I am tired.

Another minor point on consistency. On the Mac CMD+W closes a window - in any program and in the Finder. However, on the Windows side, not so. Even within MS Office. CTRL+W in Excel works that way, but not MS Word. Yes, I know on some programs you can assign your own key-board shortcut, but I’ve seen that backfire too.

RobbesPierre

Don’t oversimplify what AppleScript can do. I’m talking about applying some data to a app then extracting the processed data from that app and applying it to another app to do some additional processing over IP. I don’t know of a single scripting language on windows that is capable of doing this. All from a single click or a drop into a folder.

Batch files can turn on and off actions but can they operate the apps internal functions based on conditional statements? With AppleScript I can have the AppleScript perform complex functions that only a specialized app can do then feed the results to another app for further processing. And not just Apple apps, there are hundreds of third party apps that allow AppleScripting. Far more complexe than just recording key strokes or running batch files.

Lets simplify this for you, can Windows watch a folder for the apperance of a file then automaticly take action based on the contents of that file?

On 2001-07-07, Shades wrote:
Another minor point on consistency. On the Mac CMD+W closes a window - in any program and in the Finder. However, on the Windows side, not so.

You can close any program in Windows by hitting Alt+F4.  If you are in a program with child windows (‘Word’ for instance), you can hit Ctrl+F4 to close the focused child window.  This functionality is controlled by the OS and is consistent with every Windows program.

On 2001-07-07 12:09, Morpheus wrote:
Don’t oversimplify what AppleScript can do.

I apologize if I sounded like I was coming off that way.  I wasn’t oversimplifying…I was merely pointing out that the idea of automating redundant tasks isn’t something new that Apple brought to the table.

On 2001-07-07 12:09, Morpheus wrote:
Lets simplify this for you, can Windows watch a folder for the apperance of a file then automaticly take action based on the contents of that file?

You sure can.  Windows Scripting (which is basically VBScript and/or JScript) is a very powerful tool comperable to AppleScript.  There may be certain aspects that aren’t as easily implemented as well as AppleScript, but it goes either way.  Can AppleScript open up your address book and send an unwanted email to everyone listed (ILOVEYOU)?  Not that that example is necessarily a good thing (especially when people go executing script files sent in emails.  Bad!) but it does attest to its versatility.

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Your PC using friend

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RobbesPierre on 2001-07-07 15:59 ]</font>

Actually, AppleScript will, unfortunately, let you do that.  We just recently “got” our first such trojan horse, in fact. 

Okay, I’ll admit it you guys are way over my head.  But you seemed to have missed the thing that I appreciate the most.

If I want to copy something to my HD I simply grab it and drop it there.  I don’t have to say open A drive and copy to C drive or open D drive, run , install or what ever.  It just makes it easier.

I have seen too many people sit down in front of a Mac after using a windows based system and ask why this is so easy.  I guess that’s what it comes down to.  My mac is just plain easier to use, hands down.

On 2001-07-07 15:58, psbr wrote:
If I want to copy something to my HD I simply grab it and drop it there.  I don’t have to say open A drive and copy to C drive or open D drive, run , install or what ever.  It just makes it easier.

You know, I do the same thing on my Windows machine.  I’ve got a HD icon sitting in the upper left hand corner of my screen…and it acts just like the Mac (it’s actually called a “shortcut”).  If I want to move files, I drag them onto the icon.  If I want to copy the files, I can ctrl+drag the files onto the icon, or I can right-mouse-button+drag the files (when I let go of the right mouse button, I’ll get a menu that allows me to select copy, move, or create shortcut).  I don’t have to type anything.  I don’t have to say “open A drive and copy to C drive or open D drive, run, install”...but, I can if I want, and I like being able to make that choice.

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Your PC using friend

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RobbesPierre on 2001-07-07 16:12 ]</font>

I know this is a pretty intense (though civil, I must applaud) thread on just what Macs do and just what PC’s do, but I felt I must add my minimalistic 2Ñž.

Mac users don’t have to deal with Microsoft.

Now, I know, Linux is always an option, but let’s face the facts, Windows is on 90% of the computers out there today.

On 2001-07-07 16:13, Patricio wrote:
Mac users don’t have to deal with Microsoft.

Thanks for replying, Patricio.  And you make a very valid point.  Us PC people are knee-deep in Microsoft…and there is very little in the ways of alternatives.  But, before I continue, I have to give a little background of myself.

I’m currently employed as a developer at a well known design and technology firm (usually more known for their design than tech).  We do quite a lot of work for Microsoft and are in constant communication with their development teams.  So, you could say that I am in the unique position to experience a lot of what goes on behind the scenes, yet can stand at a safe distance.

If you are a developer and are willing to dance with Microsoft, your life will be made extremely easy.  There are numerous well developed tools at your disposal.  Documentation is readily available (the MSDN library is massive and fantastic).  Their dev teams are ALWAYS willing to help and will do anything within their power to get you answers.  Deadlines are easily managable.  Pressure is really low.  And the Windows platform is relatively easy to develop for.

If you are a developer and are NOT willing to dance with Microsoft, well, you’ll definitely be taking the hard line.  Best of luck to you on your adventure

What about the consumer?  This is a tough one for me to answer as I consider myself more on the development side than the consumer side.  Consumers benefit from competition;  Prices are kept down and innovation prospers.  Developers benefit from a single controlling entity; Their jobs are made a lot easier.

What I don’t understand is how most of the Mac community will come down on Microsoft, yet completely revel their controlling entity (Apple) as a God.  As I see it, you guys have it almost just as bad…it’s just not in the majority spotlight.  Did you guys enjoy your ATi Rage video cards?  Did you like paying more for them than the PC version?  How about the little tantrum Steve Jobs threw when ATi did something he disapproved of and threatened to pull their exclusive OEM license?  (By the way, I’m well aware that you now have more choices for video cards)  That completely sounds like something Gates would do.

Now before you go off and start yelling that I’m a Microsoft fanboy, I have to throw out this disclaimer:  I don’t agree with a lot of Microsoft’s business practices and I think it’s bad that they use their monopoly power to gain more market share.  They should be punished for these offenses in some way.  I’m not going to hate them simply because they are the biggest players in the computer industry…that’s just ignorant.

Mac users don’t have to deal with Microsoft?  You’re right.  And PC people don’t have to deal with Apple.

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Your PC using friend

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RobbesPierre on 2001-07-07 17:54 ]</font>

On 2001-07-07 15:58, psbr wrote:

If I want to copy something to my HD I simply grab it and drop it there.  I don’t have to say open A drive and copy to C drive or open D drive, run , install or what ever.  It just makes it easier.

But not for long; this is the biggest gripe I have with Mac OS X. Granted it’s in its infancy, but it doesn’t do revel in the simplicity that the marketing muckity-mucks claim it does.

What I don’t understand is how most of the Mac community will come down on Microsoft, yet completely revel their controlling entity (Apple) as a God. As I see it, you guys have it almost just as bad…it’s just not in the majority spotlight.How about the little tantrum Steve Jobs threw when ATi did something he disapproved of and threatened to pull their exclusive OEM license? (By the way, I’m well aware that you now have more choices for video cards) That completely sounds like something Gates would do.

I don’t believe that Mac users have it as bad as MS users do with respect to controlling tendencies. Call it a business practice or call it being controlling if you want but Microsoft tries to make decisions for its users that Apple never has. They have used their power as the OS provider to eliminate competition for their other products by intentionally making errors come up. They have tried to control the browser market by imbedding IE into the OS. (Even though I believe they would have won anyway..it’s a better browser.) Now with Xp they want to make it as hard as possible for the average user to even use open standard mp3s just to further their own standard..

True, Apple may not provide some features, like browsers but to my recollection Apple has NEVER blocked someone else’s standard or application from working within the Mac OS.
-D
As a side note: I was mortified by Jobs’ reaction to ATi. It was embarassing. (Although, I don’t think we lost much there. Welcome Nvidia!)
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New quote coming soon!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Photodan on 2001-07-07 21:09 ]</font>

Call it a business practice or call it being controlling if you want but Microsoft tries to make decisions for its users that Apple never has.
...but to my recollection Apple has NEVER blocked someone else’s standard or application from working within the Mac OS.

You’re right.  They’ve only blocked other hardware manufacturers from running it.  Apple sabotages in the board room, not on the motherboard.  It sounds to me like Apple wants to make the decisions of what hardware I can use with their OS.

And I don’t understand this claim that I’ve been hearing regarding how Microsoft is trying to prevent people from opening standard MP3s in Media Player.  I recently did some development for Microsoft on a certain aspect of Media Player 8 on Windows XP.  The test audio I used ALWAYS came from an MP3 source…I never once used WMA.  If they are trying to prevent people from using MP3s in Media Player, they are doing a real poor job at it. 

The only thing I can see that might be considered a “typical Microsoft tactic to get everyone to adopt their standard” technique, is a certain aspect of ripping music off a CD.  By default, Media Player will rip a CD as WMA files.  However, if you go into the “Copy Music” dialog, you’ll see a little pull-down list next to the words “File Format”.  Change that pull-down list to “MP3” and you’ll never have to worry about ripping to WMA again (it saves your options for the next time you rip).

Am I missing something?

First, I know many people like using Quark, Photoshop, Illustrator and such (FileMaker, oh I forgot FileMaker) because of its applescriptability.  Right now I’m working with this workflow automation CD, and heck is AppleScript powerful with this sort of stuff.  AppleScript is one of the few features that keeps Quark users from bailing.  Recently I was talking to a graphic guru (On one of my hundreds of lists. .  Someday Bryan I’ll have to count them all).  She was complaining that she had to PDF fonts over on Windows to get to the Mac just so she could do some work in Quark.  I really don’t know what’s out there for the PC side of scripting, but I know AppleScript is one big thing in the Graphic Industry.  Along with ColorSync, yeah ColorSync.  That color correction thing that Apple has for graphic gurus.

Also, now I don’t see this as much on the PC side anymore.  But back in the wee-early years 1984, Apple had Interface Rules (Read: Control-freak methods to keep software developers from going crazy with GUI on the Mac which worked).  Windows 1 through 3.1 didn’t have this, but now I see more standardization on Windows now and less on Mac OS X (::mumbles:: why did Apple get rid of that department, and why doesn’t cmnd-n create a new folder?)

I like being able to hack my Mac OS system using ResEdit.  Right now I’ve done some really freaky things to my system file.  This isn’t very productive, but cool, and again I have no clue if you can do this on Windows or not.

Marathon Infinity and Escape Velocity Override.  You can’t do that on your PC.  nya-nya!  Oh opps, bad burnum, bad.

In my case, it’s not being able to do it on the PC, it’s just easier on the Mac for me.  I find myself being novice in many areas, but still being able to create something cool nonetheless.

Before I could continue making more uninformed comments regarding AppleScript, I decided to pick the brain of a coworker of mine regarding its useability (he’s more than qualified).  Here are a couple of his comments:
- It is easy to use to do fairly simple tasks (“TELL WORD TO OPEN”)
- Its limitations lie in the fact that the language is structured around English (and French?).  It is therefore inherently difficult to perform much larger tasks.  There’s a reason why most major programming languages don’t read like English.

When I asked him about how AppleScript compares to Windows Scripting, his reply was that Windows Scripting had a little bit more of a learning curve (he stressed “not much” and also the fact that if you want to accomplish complex tasks, AppleScript’s learning curve increases exponentially), but you could accomplish a lot more.

I like being able to hack my Mac OS system using ResEdit. Right now I’ve done some really freaky things to my system file. This isn’t very productive, but cool, and again I have no clue if you can do this on Windows or not.

You can definitely do this in Windows with any readily available resource editor.

Marathon Infinity and Escape Velocity Override. You can’t do that on your PC. nya-nya! Oh opps, bad burnum, bad.

heheh…yeah, you definitely got us there.  Now please excuse me while I run down to the local software store and browse its many isles of Windows games.