Zune: a re-badged Toshiba

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    Posted: 28 August 2006 01:12 PM #31

    Re: Whose arrogant Re: Arrogance on both sides

    [quote author=“saengseon”]Mac users can be as much, or more, arrogant that PC users. I think Mac users are as arrogant as PC users can be ignorant of the Mac platform. Heck, many on both sides are arrogant and ignorant!

    MS will catch up on their mPod and many people will get one because there is little difference to the user between the iPod and mPod.

    And Apple could use some competition. If it wasn’t for MS Windows, we’d be paying $4,000 for our Macs today…

    I’m not sure what the arrogance of the user base has to do with the arrogance of the manufacturer smile Neither does it have much to do with the success of the iPod. The iPod succeeded because it offered the best form, function, design, and user interface coupled with a world-beating jukebox and online media store, which still today nobody has surpassed as a package.

    I think the differences between the Zune (mPod you refer to) and the iPod are pretty clear to see at a glance. One is a pale imitation (and not a very good one) of the other. It is derivative, and has little to recommend it over an iPod except for some additional and highly suspect WiFi features which promise to be both battery-draining and fairly useless unless you’re in range of many, many other Zune owners with whom you want to share your media.

    Sorry if that sounds arrogant smile . But it is very unlikely that M$ are going to come up with anything competitive with the iPod for some time. Apple owns this market. Microsoft are battling not the iPod, but Samsung, SanDisk, Creative, and all the other also-rans in this market. Only once they have killed their own PlaysForSure partners’ products will Zune then stand a chance of eating into the iPods market share. That’s likely a long way off, if ever.

    In the meantime, Apple will continue to sneak QuickTime in the form of iTunes onto 80% of digital media consumers’ PCs and ensure that it retains the top spot. Apple owns the digital media market for now, much the same way Microsoft owns the desktop. It will take a lot for that to change. Only in the field of multi-media PCs which include TV/PVR functionality do M$ hold any kind of lead, and that could change very quickly if Front Row became integrated with iTunes and made available on PCs too :idea:

    Anyway, in the end it all comes down to brand values and perceived quality. Tell me this: given a choice, for the same money, and assuming that all features are technically comparable, do you think most people would rather own a Honda or a BMW?

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  • Posted: 28 August 2006 01:28 PM #32

    Re: Whose arrogant Re: Arrogance on both sides

    [quote author=“Tommo_UK”]Anyway, in the end it all comes down to brand values and perceived quality. Tell me this: given a choice, for the same money, and assuming that all features are technically comparable, do you think most people would rather own a Honda or a BMW?

    Problem with your analogy is both Hondas and BMWs are really good cars. (and motorcycles come to think of it)

    It would have worked better had you said Yugos and BMWs.

         
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    Posted: 28 August 2006 01:34 PM #33

    Re: Whose arrogant Re: Arrogance on both sides

    [quote author=“Tiger”][quote author=“Tommo_UK”][quote author=“saengseon”]Anyway, in the end it all comes down to brand values and perceived quality. Tell me this: given a choice, for the same money, and assuming that all features are technically comparable, do you think most people would rather own a Honda or a BMW?

    Problem with your analogy is both Hondas and BMWs are really good cars. (and motorcycles come to think of it)

    It would have worked better had you said Yugos and BMWs.

    No that analogy wouldn’t work. I chose Honda and BMW because both make good cars. Apple and Microsoft will both manufacture media players which will be well-built, and similarly spec’d. You can get similar spec’d vehicles from each manufacturer. You will be able to buy similarly spec’d media players from Apple and Microsoft. Feature wise, they will share 90% of their key features. Maybe 95%. It is the implementation of those features that matters, for both the Honda/BMW and Microsoft/Apple comparisons. Given the choice, and at the same price there is no doubt the majority of drivers would choose the BMW. The design is better. The driving experience is superior in every respect. The brand cachet is far higher. The whole experience of owning and driving a BMW is that much better than own and driving a Honda.

    Similarly, most people will choose the iPod over the Zune, providing Apple stick to their core values and continue to innovate.

    You can’t compare a Yugo to a BMW, so my point wouldn’t be made by such a comparison.

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  • Posted: 28 August 2006 09:42 PM #34

    Re: Whose arrogant Re: Arrogance on both sides

    [quote author=“saengseon”]Mac users can be as much, or more, arrogant that PC users. I think Mac users are as arrogant as PC users can be ignorant of the Mac platform. Heck, many on both sides are arrogant and ignorant!

    I’ve taught Windows, built Windows-based networks, purchased, maintained and administered lots of Windows-based enterprise solutions.

    I stopped complaining (most of the time) about Windows because dealing with Windows is not a bad way to make a good living. Seriously. It’s a lucrative business and a big drain on many small enterprises (let alone the IT support in large ones). In all of my years of working with Windows (and the years I spent working with DOS), I have never purchased a Windows PC for myself nor owned one nor do I want one. I’ve been a Mac user at home for over 20 years.

    I’ve purchased more Windows-based PC systems for enterprises than I want to remember.

    I don’t think I’m ignorant about Windows nor do I think I’m arrogant as a Mac user.

    I will tell clients and superiors about the benefits of the Mac (cost savings, increased productivity, etc.). I don’t find many of these people ignorant about the Mac. What I do find is they don’t want to be reminded of how much has been wasted on Windows-based systems and if I keep up the mention all it does is build resentment. They’re afraid there’s no real way out of Windows after such big investments and would prefer to resign themselves to pretending the Mac does not exist.

    I have installed Macs as a stand alone cost-effective solution at some Windows-based enterprises when I can prove definite cost and performance benefits. But most managers and executives have other priorities and measurable objectives to achieve that taking the time and making the effort to migrate their enterprises to the Mac. It’s not considered time well spent.

         
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    Posted: 30 August 2006 06:00 AM #35

    “MSFT Microsoft’s upcoming Zune appears to be more bark than bite - AmTech (25.84 )

    AmTech notes they are frankly underwhelmed by the much-hyped Zune device. It appears that the Zune is essentially a repackaged Toshiba Gigabeat that has seen limited success. Also, like the Chocolate phone from LG and other vendors, the Zune includes a fake clickwheel that does not scroll nor is touch pressure sensitive making navigation difficult, particularly for users with large music, video, and photo libraries. The firm believes Zune will likely see some success due to MSFT’s strong brand name and strong marketing effort, but it will be limited by its lack of differentiation vs. other Windows players (CREAF, SNDK, Sony, Toshiba, Samsung, iRiver, Archos, and others).”

    Woof!  LOL

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  • Posted: 30 August 2006 06:14 AM #36

    [quote author=“Tommo_UK”]“MSFT Microsoft’s upcoming Zune appears to be more bark than bite - AmTech (25.84 )

    AmTech notes they are frankly underwhelmed by the much-hyped Zune device. It appears that the Zune is essentially a repackaged Toshiba Gigabeat that has seen limited success. Also, like the Chocolate phone from LG and other vendors, the Zune includes a fake clickwheel that does not scroll nor is touch pressure sensitive making navigation difficult, particularly for users with large music, video, and photo libraries. The firm believes Zune will likely see some success due to MSFT’s strong brand name and strong marketing effort, but it will be limited by its lack of differentiation vs. other Windows players (CREAF, SNDK, Sony, Toshiba, Samsung, iRiver, Archos, and others).”


    Woof!  LOL

    Shaw Wuf smile

         
  • Posted: 31 August 2006 03:30 AM #37

    Zune user manual

         
  • Posted: 31 August 2006 03:40 AM #38

    [quote author=“sleepygeek”] Zune user manual

    That DJ mode sounds pretty silly to me!

         
  • Posted: 31 August 2006 04:16 AM #39

    Re: Whose arrogant Re: Arrogance on both sides

    [quote author=“saengseon”]Mac users can be as much, or more, arrogant that PC users. I think Mac users are as arrogant as PC users can be ignorant of the Mac platform. Heck, many on both sides are arrogant and ignorant!

    MS will catch up on their mPod and many people will get one because there is little difference to the user between the iPod and mPod.

    And Apple could use some competition. If it wasn’t for MS Windows, we’d be paying $4,000 for our Macs today…

    Saengseon, I think you may have misread my post - I wasn’t saying anything about users being arrogant, but about MS the company/management’s capacity to deny repeated failures. Apple is in the same position with iPod as MS was with Windows in the OS market, or Lotus was in the spreadsheets, or Wordperfect in WP. You don’t hear MS management saying “the iPod wars are over - Apple won”. But you did hear “the OS wars are over, MS won” from Steve Jobs years ago. Which camp has thought out more carefully how the iPod wars may play out? We have already seen repeated statements from all and sundry in the Wintel industry over a period of years, that Apple is the iPod innovator, but will become the niche when Wintel based music products come on stream. Well, they’ve been on stream for years already. Dress it up how you like, but Zune is just another MP3 player supported by services designed for the old media industry, rather than the end user. Maybe Zune will push Apple into an iPod niche, but if it doesn’t, how many more attempts will MS make? They are used to bludgeoning the competition to death, but this time the victim is ready, and has so far dodged the cudgel.

    As regards the $4000 Macs, I am still not convinced that that wasn’t the best game plan for Apple, despite the associated decline. It’s easy to forget that IBM was the totally trusted safe brand that took the initiative from the Apple youngsters, and MS then stole it from IBM. There was never a time when it was safe for Apple to go head-to-head against IBM.

    Edit: and don’t forget SJ’s years of experience running Next in a Wintel world. He’s used to being the underdog.

         
  • Posted: 31 August 2006 06:46 AM #40

    http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/31/microsoft-apple-0831markets04.html?partner=yahootix

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    Johnny

         
  • Posted: 31 August 2006 09:14 AM #41

    Re: Whose arrogant Re: Arrogance on both sides

    [quote author=“sleepygeek”]Dress it up how you like, but Zune is just another MP3 player supported by services designed for the old media industry, rather than the end user.

    Interesting take. I’m curious if you view iTMS as different from the WMA stores on this issue of industry vs end user.

    I think you’ve posted in the past that you see Apple partnering with the industry until the time is right to revolutionize the industry somehow.

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    Off again, on again…

         
  • Posted: 31 August 2006 09:45 AM #42

    Re: Whose arrogant Re: Arrogance on both sides

    [quote author=“alcatholic”][quote author=“sleepygeek”]Dress it up how you like, but Zune is just another MP3 player supported by services designed for the old media industry, rather than the end user.

    Interesting take. Do you view iTMS as a service designed for the old media industry? I’m curious if you view iTMS as different from the WMA stores on this issue of industry vs end user.

    I think you’ve posted in the past that you see Apple partnering with the industry until the time is right to revolutionize the industry somehow.

    podcasts, buy to own, non-browser based, burn to CD, use on multiple PC’s - all delivering what users actually want. ITMS delivered the products of the old music industry in a format that users wanted.

    Apple is, and has always been, explicitly focused on the individual user. If MS want to beat that, they have to open their campaign with something even stronger than Apple’s incredibly astute opening “Rip, Mix, Burn” campaign about five years ago.

         
  • Posted: 31 August 2006 09:53 AM #43

    Re: Whose arrogant Re: Arrogance on both sides

    [quote author=“sleepygeek”]podcasts, buy to own, non-browser based, burn to CD, use on multiple PC’s - all delivering what users actually want. ITMS delivered the products of the old music industry in a format that users wanted.

    Apple is, and has always been, explicitly focused on the individual user. If MS want to beat that, they have to open their campaign with something even stronger than Apple’s incredibly astute opening “Rip, Mix, Burn” campaign about five years ago.

    Got it, thanks. I’d be surprised if the Zune store doesn’t match iTMS on those type of features. MS might even get the sync right soon enough, and add some potentially useful community features.

    Call me naive but I expect MS to push Apple on the services front, although not on the overall experience or the hardware, obviously.

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    Off again, on again…

         
  • Posted: 31 August 2006 11:51 PM #44

    Y’ ain’t seen’ nothin’ yet. Apple hasn’t responded yet with new iPod details. Microsft is attempting to revive and sell an Old Economy industry. Apple sells a New Economy product.

         
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    Posted: 05 September 2006 12:20 PM #45

    The drones are getting anxious, and have started mouthing off LOL

    http://zuneboards.com/showthread.php?tid=165

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    “Waiter waiter I’m not happy with my Zach Bass. Would you serve it on a silver platter with an apple on the side please?”