Personally, I’d like to start by applauding several of the posters here. I feel Guest’s comment on fanaticism being a result of a lack of faith is very close to the mark.  I personally calmed down a lot from my early flame warrior days since buying my own system, since I knew exactly why it was right for me. After that, all the arguing seemed fairly trivial.

Dave Marsh’s comments on Motorola and Apple are excellent, as is the link provided. Scary, but excellent. I have to admit, I’d be a lot more disappointed about these machines if I wasn’t expecting a Power4 variant in the near future myself.

Also, I think Sigmascape’s comments are spot on too. MacOS X is probably the single most traumatic change the Mac community has gone through. The old and refined MacOS 9 is being replaced by the young, and still developing MacOS X. Even though it has far more potential than MacOS 9 has, it hasn’t realized a lot of that potential yet.

Still, It’s ironic how a debate on whether the Mac community is beign torn apart by internal squabbling has turned into a lot of internal squabbling. Ah well, I may not agree with your opinions or beliefs folks, but I still loves ya!

[quote author=“Anonymous”][quote author=“rjung”]Okay, the processors aren’t the best in the world, but that’s a Motorola problem, not an Apple problem

What? Not an Apple problem? Since Apple is putting these processors in their computers, it’s an Apple problem.

Nonsense.  If Motorola keeps dragging their feet, Apple will go elsewhere for their processor needs.  Simple as that.

Anyone who thinks Steve Jobs is just sitting in his office, wringing his hands and waiting for the day when Moto will announce 3 GHz G5s is deluding themselves—I’m sure Apple’s management already has two or three contingency plans in the works for if and when Moto fails to deliver what they want.

And besides, processor numbers are really meaningless for mosteveryday tasks.  If you’re surfing the internet, for instance, a 5 GHz Pentium just means it’s wasting more clock cycles doing nothing while you’re reading the text on this page.  The important matter is if the computer is fast enough for you, and I don’t see a major problem for Apple here.

Unity is bad, what does the US have right now, unity, what does the US do with it, try and find people to kill.  With differing opinions you end up with an outcome far more beneficial.

While I agree that Apple certainly has contingency plans and developments underway, It still is Apple’s problem, especially when it comes to public perception. Perception, after all, is usually more important than fact when making a sale.

However, the above statement I really disagree with. I have no qualms recommending an iMac or eMac G4 800 to virtually any home or office user, or the casual gamer.  The Power Macs are often bought by people who need raw processing power, rather than for the expansion or design. For those people, the Pentium provides more raw power for less money than a G4 Mac does. Until Apple can bring out a new chip that can beat a top-end Pentium in MOST high-power processor tasks (Like 3d, and area the G4 is currently poor at), Apple can’t expand it’s high-profit professional client base.

What’s happening is no more than a normal reaction to change. The .Mac and Jaguar pricing gaffs are simply continuations of Apple’s oh so sad marketing problems and will soon be forgotten. The big “problem” for most people is the move from traditional MacOS to MacOS X. There are two main reasons for this: firstly, many people have equipment that is not up to the move, so they feel perhaps left out and will only be able to move up when they change their machines—might take some time for an ordinary family; secondly, the change from traditional MacOS to MacOS X is far greater than the changes we saw from System 6 to System 7 and then from 7 to 8 and finally from 8 to 9. Everything looks different; things have apparently to be learned anew; there are all sorts of rumours of “not enough applications” (nonsense for the home user, but that’s what’s being said to me); people have heard about this funny Unix thing and are worried. It will take a while for these, too, to get over this fear of the new (note, “new” not just “change”).

On a professional level, things will go more smoothly, as machines can be gradually written off or more easily upgraded and, of course, once all of the really major players are fully ready for MacOS X (a scandal that this is not already the case). Apple will find a solution for the areas where more powerful processors are required, no worry there, I think.

I’ve complained about .Mac and about having to pay for jaguar, but that doesn’t mean that I would leave my Macs go. When something better comes along (better, not faster—speed is hardly a major concern for most applications nowadays and I’m not about to start playing games!) I’ll do my own “switch”, but I honestly don’t see anyone bettering Apple in the GUI race.

The problem is no assured superiority

Back in the 1980s. comparing a Macintosh to an IBM compatible(80x86) one was ludicrous. the 68k chips in Mac’s absolutely blew the 80x86 stuff out of the water. and Mac’s shipped default with EVERYTHING. as for software. the Mac’s System Software was elegant, refined, simple and powerful. meanwhile most 80x86 machines didn’t even ship with Windows. and Windows itself was barely better than DOS.

This continued clear through the Quadra(When comparing a Quadra 700 to a 486-clone was still absurd) era into the the PPC era. proprietary technology may have costed more. but it allowed Apple not only to easily equal. but to vastly surpass 80x86 machines YEARS before they could get such things. NUBUS crushed ISA, ADB was utter bliss compared to PS2, SCSI made ATA and parallel look like a bad joke, LocalTalk’s easy, fast, built-in networking made 80x86 users(Who didn’t even HAVE networking most of the time. and had to spend weeks. not minutes. setting it up if they did) wet their pants, the Mac’s high resolution of 512 x 384 or 640x480 and(Later on) 8-bit palletized color gave Mac users their characteristic sneer when running a 320x240 4-bit color 80x86 port. and the Mac’s built-in sound hardware made the dissorganized selection of 80x86 sound cards tinny and weak in comparison.

And as System 6. and later System 7 came about. astounding new features arrived that Windows 3.1 users couldn’t dream of in their wildest fantasies. complete internet access, QuickTime enabled multimedia CD-ROMs, powerful 24-bit image editing software, and countless others. all of which could be quickly grasped by the average user. as opposed to the typical “So. ever get that CD drive working? *Snicker*” comments commonly flung at 80x86 users.

As well. Apple itself was an unusually friendly and. above all. “Humane” company to deal with. service and support were excellent. phone support was completely free. software updates were too. Apple regularly “Went the extra mile” for each customer. this spread by word of mouth. and Apple benefitted from it.

Basically. you payed extra for a Mac. but you always knew you were getting a good deal and an assuredly superior product.

Flash to the mid-1990s. Apple is starting to make the Mac less “Mac-Like” and more like an 80x86 machine. instead of numerous superior options. we go with PCI. later, SCSI falls victim to ATA. by 1996, some Macintosh motherboards possess no differences to 80x86 machines save for the ROM chip and the CPU. which means that hardware superiority falls solely on the shoulders of the CPU.

And in software. The hammer fell. Copland was officially declared dead. Amelio. and his evil henchwoman Ellen Hancock let loose a flow of blood and carnage on a scale rarely seen before or since. and Apple’s most innovative developments all died: OpenDoc, QuickTime Confrencing, Quickdraw GX… gone. what replaced it was Mac OS 7.6. now reviled as one of the worst releases in the history of the Macintosh. and the first system update to cost money. simultaneously. the level of discipline amongst Mac software developers fell. the contents of the application’s folder swelled. use of balloon help, AppleEvents, AppleTalk and all the other touches that made it feel like Mac software. as well as compliance with Apple’s numerous development guidelines(Like the User Interface ones) plummeted.  then came 8.0. this monstrous beast set so many bad examples for the develpoer community that I can’t even list all of them. needless to say. the contents of the System folder exploded. there was a different extension for every new function(Instead of just putting it in the System File or Finder like before). and new sub-folders all over the System Folder. application developers soon followed suite.

Meanwhile. on the 80x86 side. Windows 95 shipped. while it still bore a vast feature-gap from System 7. it closed up enough holes to make Mac users think twice. and newer releases of Windows NT also took a bite out of the Mac’s pro territory. the new Pentium 2. though still not a credible threat to the G3. was also the first 80x86 CPU to be met with anything other than derisive laughter from Mac users, 24-bit color became common. news stories asking “Has Microsoft caught up with Apple?”. started to appear.

During this period. Macintosh marketshare dropped from 25% during the early 1990s to around 5% by the end of the mid-1990s. most Mac software was either ported from or to MS Windows. Apple was in shambles.

Then came Steve. who must have had quite a baptism of fire during his exile from Apple. after applying a little shock tharapy to the userbase during his first keynote. he proceeded to make a leaner, meaner Apple. by throwing away the clone industry, killing CHRP, desposing of the Newton, charging for phone support, making tech support and service generally “Leaner”(If not downright hostile) and firing many of Apple’s best staff. as well as trimming Apple’s product line by dumping printers, scanners, speakers, michrophones, still cameras, webcams and many others(Quite a few of which were still quite profitable). Apple was profitable. but at a great cost.

It was in this period also that 80x86 machines seriously started catching up with. and in some ways surpassing the Mac. Windows 98 shipped, Creative and Aureal added surround support and high quality 3D sound to their cards, new 3D graphics accelerators on the 80x86 market started appearing without Mac support, networking together 80x86 machines became so easy. normal people could do it, some users could spend an incredible amount of time without accessing DOS or the BIOS, the Windows filebrowser became pretty darned usable. and newer Pentium 2s and early Pentium 3s began blurring the speed advantege possessed by the G3. not to mention some of Apple’s 80x86 parts(Like the RAM) not retaining parity with 80x86 motherboards.

Eventually. many of the Mac’s advantages either became moot due to advances in 80x86 machines. or(Usually???) were thrown away by Apple. the sheer degree of closure in the Mac-80x86 superiority gap during Jobs’ tenure can be witnessed by reading this classic circa-1997 PR document and comparing it with later on in his time at Apple. or worst of all, with the “Modern Macintosh” and OS X.

Nowadays of course. all professional applications run on Windows, practically all Mac apps are either ports or ported(And feel just like using an 80x86 executable), G4s and G3s are held down by outdated 80x86 motherboards. and the heart and soul of the Macintosh. it’s system software. is now OS X.

As for OS X. while it is undoubtedly _the_ best version of UN*X ever made. for a Mac user. that ain’t saying much. as it still doesn’t come close to the real Macintosh System. a thin graphical veneer coating a massive command line superstructure. not bothering to include graphical interfaces for much of it’s functionality, it’s equivalent of the System folder. a 1.5GB disorganized flat level rat’s nest of XML files and frameworks barely better than the heap of obscure files Windows/DOS throws at you. is little improved from it’s primal BSD incarnation. feels pretty much as user hostile as MS Windows. is the absolute antithesis of the Macintosh user experience. leaving little difference between an 80x86 machine and a “Macintosh”.

This situation causes Mac users now to seriously question if all the extra money, all the extra effort, all the extra time and all the extra dedication was worth it. in short. there is no assured superiority today.

                                        Eric,

I’m really enjoying the thoughtful responses in this thread

Re: The problem is no assured superiority

[quote author=“Anonymous”]As for OS X. while it is undoubtedly _the_ best version of UN*X ever made. for a Mac user. that ain’t saying much. as it still doesn’t come close to the real Macintosh System. a thin graphical veneer coating a massive command line superstructure.

Poppycock.

As a dyed-in-the-wool UNIX programmer and Mac-head, I can state empathically that it is completely possible to use and maintain MacOS X without ever having to touch the command line and the terminal.  It’s a handy quick-and-dirty way to fix things, sure, but it’s not necessary—if you want to do everything through the GUI, you can.  The only thing I even use Terminal for these days is to run ping, and that’s only because I’m too lazy to use Apple’s included Network Management application.  And I can easily throw MacOS X at my technically-illiterate family members without any worries; I might want to hide the Terminal app so they won’t go poking under the hood, but they certainly won’t need to use it.

Calling MacOS X “a thin graphical veneer” is like saying a Porsche is nothing more than a Ford with a prettier shell, and shows the depths of your ignorance.

Re: The problem is no assured superiority

[quote author=“rjung”]I can state empathically that it is completely possible to use and maintain MacOS X without ever having to touch the command line and the terminal.

In theory, yes, but if you have an International English version and want the date to appear correctly in the pull-down right-hand menu, you have to use the terminal, as the System Preferences does not work correctly! Otherwise, I’d completely agree that MacOS X is a wonderful achievement.

(Edited because a menu is a menu and not a manu…)