Want to talk about pre-existing conditions and how they shouldn’t be allowed? I am the perfect person to talk to about it.

Many here know the hell I went through coming up on seven years ago. I broke my back, had a spinal fluid leak, two DVTs (blood clots size of golf balls), died three times, had a mild stroke, and came back all sorts of pissed off. Just last year I found out they didn’t bother checking my neck and I have been walking around with a broken neck for seven years. I have lived in pain that would make most people suicide 24/7 for that whole time. Doctors and specialists, male and female, have all asked me why I haven’t killed myself because if they were in this much pain they would have done so long ago because there isn’t enough drugs or surgery to make them want to live through this.

Can I get insurance? Sure. Will I be able to get my neck fixed? Sure, just as soon as I can come up with an extra $4k-10k to pay for it. Never mind that this was all a Work Comp claim that was denied before I even got the MRI that showed I did, indeed, break my back (as if the physical cues weren’t enough). Will the insurance pay any of it?

Nope.

Even if I do declare all of this to the insurance companies my rates will be sky high. For myself, at a basic plan, it costs upwards of $350 a month to start. Group plan at a place of employment? I save $25. Yet, it still won’t net me a fixed neck because all of these plans exclude pre-existing conditions.

Can I pay extra to have it include pre-existing conditions in the plan? Nope.

That car insurance analogy is flawed on so many levels. You can’t compare a human body being repaired to a car being repaired. A car can be replaced in whole; a human body can’t.

Engine goes out on your car? You can buy a new car, at the low end, for $13k. You can even get a good used car for $6k.

Heart goes out in your body? You can’t get (and wouldn’t want) a low end replacement on that so you have to go high end. $13k will barely cover the hospital stay let alone the surgery, drugs, rehab, checkups, etc.

New steering wheel for your car? $50 do-it-yourself. New neck for your head to be able to turn correctly? Like I said, $4k-$10k, and that includes titanium rods, fusion, and wondering whether you will be paralyzed or dead because of your other pre-existing conditions.

Can you tell which side of this debate I am on? I would love for pre-existing conditions to be included in health insurance. Would I mind paying a bit extra for this? No, I wouldn’t, because it would be worth it. I would rather pay an extra $50 a month to a health plan that includes it than try to come up with $10k to get it done. At least with the extra $50 a month I have coverage that would cover any possible outcomes from the surgery or other conditions, whereas the $10k would cover just that procedure and anything coming after that I am screwed.

You have just read an opinion by someone who has witnessed the crap we call healthcare and the health insurance industry in the USA firsthand. IT SUCKS! It needs a massive overhaul in the worst way.

Do I agree with everything Obama wants to put in? No. Do I agree with the everything the GOP wants to exclude? No.  I think a tax on those who can’t afford to get health insurance is a ridiculous idea and should not even be thought about as it does nothing to allow those who can’t afford it to afford it. It penalizes them for not having the income to afford it, which is why the health care reform is being pushed so hard this time around in the first place. It creates a Catch-22 for those people. Should health insurance be cheap enough so that those who couldn’t afford it before can now? Yes.

I suggest all those concerned actually read the bills. Read the statements from your representatives. Read their proposals. Don’t rely upon Rush, Beck, Hannity, Cooper, Malkin, Maddow or the rest to make up your mind for you. They are sound bites; they want ratings to stay on the air so will say pretty much anything and highlight only the controversial portions of anything to get and keep viewers.

If you let them make up your mind for you then you are the epitome of what TV used to be called: you are the “Idiot” that is in front of “The Idiot Box”.

That’s appalling, and I can’t express my sympathy for you. What a horrible situation to be in, with no way out. The bastards… 

For those who have not yet read the bill, and have not yet found their way to it or think it says things which it doesn’t: http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

Start off with page 29 and compare the lies with the truth.

On the current bill:

First: How can you justify making people who are VOLUNTARILY without health coverage (NOT including those who want but cannot afford health insurance) to either purchase health coverage or pay a fine? I voluntarily went without insurance from my late teens through my early 30s. Got in an accident once, cost me a few K, but still way less than almost 20 years worth of premiums would have cost me. Yet this plan, if passed, will say to people like myself at a younger age: pay up, one way or another.  Why is it plans like this always end up making someone else pay for others, invariably hitting young middle-class citizens the hardest?

Of course, the admitted idea is to have everyone share in the costs of health care, whether they want to or not. Let’s make the healthy pay for the sick, the rich pay for the poor, etc. etc. etc. (and people wonder why such plans are labeled socialist…)  Whether one admits to the reality of the situation or not, there is NO functional difference between forcing someone to either purchase a product they do not wish to purchase or face a fine, or simply taxing those same individuals to subsidize a national insurance plan. The end result is the plan makes people involuntarily pay for the problems of other people. What happened to freedom?

Second: How does this plan make accommodation for the inevitably large increase in demand for medical services? Many doctors’ offices are already over loaded.  Many private practices are not accepting new patients. Immediate care facilities are full to the brim.

What plans of this type always fail to take into consideration is we are dealing with limited resources.  You cannot simply make something limited available to everyone equally without something bad happening as a consequence. When a limited resource is suddenly faced with a 20% increase in demand, it will result in two things: informal (or formal) rationing, and a huge spike in prices.  The idea that we can, in a matter of months, make health care available “to all” while simultaneously holding down costs and without an impact on quality of service is ludicrous in the extreme. Add to that the proposed regulations requiring insurance to cover preexisting conditions etc. (thus increasing costs for the insurance companies) while claiming the plan would “help reduce the price of insurance” and the level of ludicrous claims and expectations goes far beyond the normal level of government lies and bogus promises.

Third: And speaking of costs, why aren’t we looking into health care costs as a possible (ie: DUH!) cause of a majority of the health care crisis?  Health care costs have risen at almost FIVE times the rate of inflation over the last decade, yet while we scream about those cost increases, noone has bothered doing any actual investigative research into what is causing health care costs to skyrocket so far above normal inflationary pressures.

There are some other unspoken (deliberately?) realities in regard to the health care issue. First is the fact that neither health care facilities, nor insurance companies make a significantly higher ROI or profit margin than any other main stream industry.  As such the bogus cry of high, unearned profits is just one more typical class-warfare lie of the left. Second, if one were to think about it, if health care costs had stayed level with the rate of inflation over the last decade or so, the entire issue of health care would be of very low priority right now, instead of a mainstream, primary issue it has become.

As such, if we TRULY want health care reform (as opposed to the usual ignore reality government approach) we need to do some honest research into those factors that are driving health care cost through the roof, and then find an approach to managing those factors so as to take pressure off the cost of health care. It is simple. SOMETHING is driving costs way above where they should be.  Control those somethings, and costs will stabilize or even come down. As health care cost come down, so will the costs of health care insurance, making it more affordable for both individuals and for industry that provides insurance as a benefit. (What do you want to bet a BIG factor in health care costs are government regulations and red tape imposed on medical research?)

Finally: While I am sympathetic to the preexisting conditions exemption issue, there are, as have been pointed out, BIG problems with banning any type of preexisting conditions exemption. First, in spite of claims to the contrary, forcing companies to cover preexisting conditions WILL make a significant impact on the costs of the insurance, which WILL end up being passed onto the consumer in the form of higher premiums. Try to artificially control that inevitable reaction will only result in a major crisis in the entire medical insurance industry in similar or larger scope than we recently experienced with the banking industry.

In my state we have a compromise law. If a person has had medical coverage, and needs to transfer that coverage to a different insurance company, then preexisting conditions are covered.  This not only allows people to transfer to a new job, but also allows companies to shop for better deals if they decide they do not like their current carrier.  However, to prevent people from taking advantage by not carrying coverage until they need it, the mandate only covers people who had insurance and transferred to a different carrier.  And to cover those who lose their job for any reason, there is a provision called COBRA, which forces companies to offer their insurance to those people at cost.  If the person cannot afford the payment, state assistance is available on a sliding scale. As of last year, COBRA assistance has helped several thousand Montanans keep their insurance, thus staying off medicaid roles (or doing without). I suggest a similar solution here, instead of a blanket mandate.

Thanks Zewazir, great post. Anything that grows government, puts more power into fewer hands, which is always dangerous. And that is what this health care bill is doing.

Something to think about.

“What we have in Canada is access to a government, state-mandated wait list,” said Brian Day, a former Canadian Medical Assn. director who runs a private surgical center in Vancouver. “You cannot force a citizen in a free and democratic society to simply wait for healthcare, and outlaw their ability to extricate themselves from a wait list.”

Laurie Fleming - 26 September 2009 01:32 PM

I am not going to play your game. You are bait-and-switching again.

That man is a liar. You promote those videos. Unless you are a fool, you are also a liar.

If you wish to debate, to join in a genuine dialectic, go ahead. If you want to post facts, or opinions which you are able to back up, go ahead.

If you would rather present dishonest rhetoric (and it is dishonest), if you want to indulge in being patronising, if you want to avoid the topic or switch it to one of your own choosing, you are being a fool and are wasting your time.

As I probably am by taking the time to respond to you.

The topic is Health Insurance Legislation. Go to it. But make sure you have your facts right first.

Laurie, when you answer my question, I will respond to you. I have never considered using the “Ignore” button on anyone here before, so you may be the first.  And patronizing is spelled with a “z” in this country.

You Mislead! Fact-checking Obama , from National Review Online.

13. “The [bogus] claim . . . that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens . . . is a lie, plain and simple.” Sarah Palin claimed that Obama’s “death panels” would deny people medical care, not actively kill them. If Palin believes her claim, it is not “a lie, plain and simple.” Most important, the substance of Palin’s claim is, in fact, true. Obama himself proposed a new Independent Medicare Advisory Council with the authority to deny life-extending care to the elderly and disabled.

The Definition of a Tax

In a new Web video released Monday morning, the Republican National Committee included a piece of an interview on Sept. 20 in which ABC’s George Stephanopoulos cited Merriam Webster’s Dictionary as he asked Mr. Obama how requiring individuals to purchase health insurance — and fining them if they do not — wouldn’t by definition be a tax.

Subsidies in Baucus Health Reform Plan Would Fall Short of What Is Needed for Many People to Afford Health Care

The difficulty Congress is encountering in finding ways to finance health reform legislation is placing in jeopardy the adequacy of the legislation’s subsidies to help low- and moderate-income people afford health coverage and out-of-pocket costs. The plan unveiled today by Senate Finance Committee Chair Max Baucus, reflecting deliberations by a group of the Committee’s Senators, would provide more limited subsidies to help people purchase coverage than the Senate HELP Committee bill or the House bill. The Baucus plan could leave many people who are eligible for subsidies facing fairly steep insurance premiums and cost-sharing charges that they could have difficulty affording.

Health Plan: Taxes Now, Benefits Later

This plan as proposed could be a political disaster for the president the and the majority party on Congress. I can understand the desire to pass a plan, but with most benefits not scheduled until after the next presidential election and taxes kicking in ahead of the roll out of benefits this legislation is going to be a political football for the next four years.

[Edit: The system doesn’t like some of the characters that were used in the long link. Please see AP news for more information.]

This from Life Extension Magazine.

The Generic Drug Rip Off

By William Faloon
William Faloon
I did everything I could—including risking life in prison. Back in the 1980s-1990s, the Life Extension Foundation® crusaded to enlighten Americans about the economic ruination that would occur if this country’s corrupt drug regulatory structure was not abolished. At the behest of pharmaceutical interests, the FDA brutally retaliated against us.

What I am about to divulge is a shocking revelation about why prescription drugs cost so much. Before I describe this pervasive fraud, I want to remind readers what happens when an apathetic public allows archaic government regulations to rule the marketplace.

Health Care Costs Bankrupting United States

Everything Life Extension® predicted about the health care cost crisis is happening before our eyes. Major corporations, individuals, and the government are being bankrupted by out-of-control medical costs. Some say the economic challenges facing the United States will result in substantially reduced standards of living. This does not have to happen.

As we long ago identified, the cause behind spiraling medical costs is a crooked and ludicrous regulatory structure.

Today’s health care cost crisis is widely acknowledged and feared. No one, however, has yet proposed a practical solution to resolve it.

Allow an expansion of my meaning,

This concept of compulsory insurance coverage is a tax on living. Most taxes are activity based, income, sales…  But this is payable for just being.

It has been argued that we are compelled by the individual states to provide auto insurance to drive. And this new requirement of health care insurance is an extension of that, promoting the general welfare and authorized by the commerce clause in the constitution. I say that there is some confusion between privileges and rights.

Driving is a privilege, living is not.

Liberalism at work. This is HR3962 , the liberals road to complete control of our health care. !990 pages of legislation.

And 13 New Taxes . But the liberals say that it is free.

They don’t say it’s free. And if you think they do, you’re misinterpreting it again. I’m sure you’ll come up with some quote or other, because you let other people do your thinking for you, that will purport to say otherwise, but it won’t be the truth.

I say you’re lying.

Laurie Fleming - 31 October 2009 07:56 PM

They don’t say it’s free. And if you think they do, you’re misinterpreting it again. I’m sure you’ll come up with some quote or other, because you let other people do your thinking for you, that will purport to say otherwise, but it won’t be the truth.

I say you’re lying.

Thank you Mr. Laurie for your kind words. Another Link .

House Democrats have provided a Short Summary H.R. 3962. The basics of the bill are these:

-Creation of a government-run health insurance program – potential to cause 114 million Americans to lose their current coverage.

- Forcing of individuals to purchase government-run Exchange – private health insurance industry will be forced out of business.

-Employers would be encouraged to drop existing coverage, due to regulations that would raise premiums.

-New federal spending (Trillions of dollars) and increased deficit will affect long-term fiscal solvency of America.

-Taxes will be levied on Americans who purchase insurance, Americans who do not purchase insurance and millions of small businesses – leading to job losses and increased healthcare premiums.

-Cuts to Medicare Advantage plans will result in increased premiums and more than 10 million seniors having their coverage dropped.

  I don’t know about any of the reports that you may be receiving in New Zealand, but here in America, government-run health care is being hacked as “Free,” except for the evil rich people that will pay for all of the liberal social programs.

New Zealand just keeps looking better and better. I’m beginning to think that Canterbury Region may be a great place to live. Any ideas?

[Lies (I have checked them against the bill’s contents), misinterpretation and wilful misunderstanding about the HR3962 bill removed]

Mr. Laurie, please “Fact Check” this for me.

[Moderator’s note: this is not censorship. Whatever MacCube’s opinions, however odious they may be to me and others, are irrelevant. He presents his opinions, in others’ words but rarely his own, as facts when they are not. He has repeatedly made stuff up, been abusive and patronising to several members of this forum.]

Fact-check it yourself. And if you find any lies or misrepresentations in it and don’t remove your post, it will be done for you.

My name is Laurie, or Mr Fleming if you’re attempting lamely to be formal.