Wrong Side of History

  • Posted: 26 November 2009 02:10 AM #31

    alcatholic - 26 November 2009 03:22 AM

    I

    had not heard of this.  Are the emails just from researches at East Anglia, who might not be important researchers, or are some of the emails from prominent researchers?

    This is pretty interesting news, but before I take your or Red State’s word for it, is there a good source of info on these docs you could link to?  I wouldn’t consider a political site like Red State credible in this case.  But is there maybe a blog hosting the docs or maybe a scientist blog discussing their “shame” at these revelations?  A prominent scientist discussing the issue would be a key sign of authenticity in my book.

    I picked it up here but have heard it referenced in a few tech podcasts.  The way it was discussed led me to believe that it was the primary scientists attempting to manipulate the data and not the worker bees and lower level data gatherers.  If you find out otherwise, please let us know.

    http://www.aim.org/aim-column/media-ignore-climate-science-scandal/

    I don’t really follow this topic (global warming) much so I’m not even an informed amateur.  I’m old enough to have been through so many “the world is coming to an end” scenarios that I have become more jaded than maybe I should be.  What I do believe is that man collectively has always had an amazing ability to overestimate it’s intelligence and depth of understanding regarding these kind of things.  I would bet my entire net worth that the climatological model they are using will at some point be routinely ridiculed.  Not because they aren’t very bright individuals…,I’m sure some of them are.  It’s just that the true scope of the inter-operational factors will be thought to be less than adequate in determining much of anything regarding the planet.  I hate to bring this up because it’s such a cliche but these are many of the same people that bring us our daily forecast.  How adequate has that model been?  How many times has it been revised in the last decade?  How close is it to being useful?

    I am pretty disgusted that both sides of this seem to be willing to play the red vs. blue game.  I can’t think of any issue that has more to do with everyone on this planet and yet many here treat it as a political football.  That alone should suggest to all of us that the validity of the material needs to be looked at in depth.

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    Posted: 26 November 2009 05:18 AM #32

    firestorm - 26 November 2009 03:53 AM

    AND almost single-handedly wrecked the economy with their hatred of government regulation; a legacy that goes back to Reagan.

    When i see this i just need to butt in and set some of the record straight. Part of the problem as i see can be googled very easily. But besides all the other contributions to the fall 2008 quagmire was these excerpts:

    The legislation was the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act (alternatively known as Gramm Leach Bliley), which allowed banks to merge with insurance companies and investment houses. And Dorgan was, at the time, on a proverbial island with his concerns. Only eight senators would vote against the measure—lionized by its proponents, including senior staff in the Clinton administration and many now staffing President Obama, as the most important breakthrough in the worlds of finance and politics in decades.

    “It was more like a tidal wave in 1999,” the North Dakota Democrat recalled of that vote in an interview with the Huffington Post. “You’ve seen the roll call. We didn’t really have to deal with push back because they had such a strong, strong body of support for what they call modernization that the vote was never in doubt… The title of the bill was ‘The Financial Modernization Act.’ And so if you don’t want to modernize, I guess you’re considered hopelessly old fashioned.”

    This disgraceful bow to the banking industry, eagerly signed into law by Bill Clinton in 1999, bears a major share of responsibility for the current banking crisis. Here’s the complete roll call of shame:

    REPUBLICANS FOR (52): Abraham, Allard, Ashcroft, Bennett, Brownback, Bond, Bunning, Burns, Campbell, Chafee, Cochran, Collins, Coverdell, Craig, Crapo, DeWine, Domenici, Enzi, Frist, Gorton, Gramm (Tex.), Grams (Minn.), Grassley, Gregg, Hegel, Hatch, Helms, Hutchinson (Ark.), Hutchison (Tex.), Inhofe, Jeffords, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Mack, McConnell, Murkowski, Nickles, Roberts, Roth, Santorum, Sessions, Smith (N.H.), Smith (Ore.), Snowe, Specter, Stevens, Thomas, Thompson, Thurmond, Voinovich and Warner. DEMOCRATS FOR (38): Akaka, Baucus, Bayh, Biden, Bingaman, Breaux, Byrd, Cleland, Conrad, Daschle, Dodd, Durbin, Edwards, Feinstein, Graham (Fla.), Hollings, Inouye, Johnson, Kennedy, Kerrey (Neb.), Kerry (Mass.), Kohl, Landrieu, Lautenberg, Leahy, Levin, Lieberman, Lincoln, Moynihan, Murray, Reed (R.L), Reid (Nev.), Robb, Rockefeller, Sarbanes, Schumer, Torricelli and Wyden.

    REPUBLICANS AGAINST(1): Shelby.

    DEMOCRATS AGAINST(7): Boxer, Bryan, Dorgan, Feingold, Harkin, Mikulski and Wellstone.

    NOT VOTING: 2 REPUBLICANS (2): Fitzgerald (voted present) and McCain.

    The House Democrats were no less enthusiastic in their endorsement of this invitation to plunder—the repeal passed there by a margin of 343-86, with the Donkey Party favoring the measure by a two-to-one margin, 138-69. Current House speaker Nancy Pelosi managed not to register a vote on this one, so great was her fear of offending her party’s corporate paymasters even though she knew passage was a sure thing.

    But wait . . . as usual, the Democrats were eager to pile on to this reversal of New Deal regulatory progressivism—fully 38 of 45 Senate Democrats voted for the repeal (which passed 90-8), including some famous names commonly associated with “progressive” politics by the easily gulled: Dodd, Kennedy, Kerry, Reid, and Schumer. And, of course, there was the inevitable shout of “yea” from the ever-servile corporate factotum Joseph Biden, Barack Obama’s idea of a tribune of “change”—if by change one means erasing any lingering obstacle to corporate domination of the polity.

         
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    Posted: 26 November 2009 11:41 PM #33

    firestorm - 26 November 2009 03:53 AM
    MacCube - 26 November 2009 03:11 AM

    The liberal media spin has started. Soon the mindless zombie foot solders will fall into lockstep for their masters, repeating all of the well worn liberal catch phrases in an attempt to hide what is true. Sadly, all very predictable.

    :apple:

    Sadly, you are the one that is predictable.  Virtually every sentence you wrote could have been lifted from the right-wing Republican playbook.  This would not be so bad, except that these are the folks who led us into a needless war AND almost single-handedly wrecked the economy with their hatred of government regulation; a legacy that goes back to Reagan.  You really should try reading or watching something other than the right-wing media, because you are sounding like the drones who repeat the same phrases over and over like zombies.

    The only value of your post is that you have shown that you are ignorant beyond comprehension. There is no substance to your post, just mindless diatribes created to cause unrest in this forum. You have made 42 post (mostly useless) and after taking the time to read them I find myself replying to an internet troll. When people disagree with you you attack them personally. With your comment about “right-wingers” believing that the Earth is only 6000 years old, you have shown that you are the one who is uninformed, unintelligent, and ignorant. I applaud you for not being ashamed of being an atheist, I just hope you keep that conviction under Muslim rule. LOL

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  • Posted: 27 November 2009 05:20 AM #34

    I am pretty disgusted that both sides of this seem to be willing to play the red vs. blue game.  I can?t think of any issue that has more to do with everyone on this planet and yet many here treat it as a political football.  That alone should suggest to all of us that the validity of the material needs to be looked at in depth.

    The house of representatives has passed a cap and trade bill. It was a party line vote. The football my friends is our lives and future. And the impetus for this action,  human caused global warming, has been based on a sustained program of lies and distortion predictably leading to fear and guilt. This government has taxed productivity and redistributed the proceeds. Their largest social schemes of medicare and social security are not sustainable with dedicated funds having been spent on other programs of redistribution. They are now “playing on your fears” in order to impose another tax based on energy use. This so they may continue while you serve penance for being so productive under their last scheme. 

    I’m disgusted that they are getting away with it. It’s time to pick a side and get in this game. Being fat, dumb and happy on the sidelines won’t cut it. To all you moderates who won’t dirty your hands with a political stand, open your eyes, engage your brains, because you may not get it yet, but politics is about to change your life.

    And Apple quit the Chamber of Commerce because of opposition to this scheme.

         
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    Posted: 27 November 2009 10:52 AM #35

    danthemason - 27 November 2009 09:20 AM

    ... To all you moderates who won’t dirty your hands with a political stand, open your eyes, engage your brains, because you may not get it yet, but politics is about to change your life ...

    Though I’m not an American citizen, following your advice I read a little on tax policies.  So far, I’m leaning towards supporting the republicans.

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  • Posted: 27 November 2009 11:28 AM #36

    danthemason - 27 November 2009 09:20 AM

    I am pretty disgusted that both sides of this seem to be willing to play the red vs. blue game.  I can?t think of any issue that has more to do with everyone on this planet and yet many here treat it as a political football.  That alone should suggest to all of us that the validity of the material needs to be looked at in depth.

    The house of representatives has passed a cap and trade bill. It was a party line vote. The football my friends is our lives and future. And the impetus for this action,  human caused global warming, has been based on a sustained program of lies and distortion predictably leading to fear and guilt. This government has taxed productivity and redistributed the proceeds. Their largest social schemes of medicare and social security are not sustainable with dedicated funds having been spent on other programs of redistribution. They are now “playing on your fears” in order to impose another tax based on energy use. This so they may continue while you serve penance for being so productive under their last scheme. 

    I’m disgusted that they are getting away with it. It’s time to pick a side and get in this game. Being fat, dumb and happy on the sidelines won’t cut it. To all you moderates who won’t dirty your hands with a political stand, open your eyes, engage your brains, because you may not get it yet, but politics is about to change your life.

    And Apple quit the Chamber of Commerce because of opposition to this scheme.

    CHOICE MY ASS!
    Democrats and Republicans believe that redistribution of wealth is an acceptable concept.  I consider it theft.
    Republicans and some Democrats believe it’s acceptable to limit your freedom directly while invading the concepts behind the Constitution. The Patriot Act was not just a modern day proof of Orwell’s newspeak in action but should have been considered an affront to the personal freedom we all hold dear.  And while I’m at it…,just what is it they don’t understand about the concept behind separation of church and state.

    Choose?  I chose long ago.  I stand with John Galt.

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    Posted: 27 November 2009 12:02 PM #37

    Totally agree with BillH.

    Both major US parties are corrupt and self-serving. For most people, picking “sides” simply means that you ignore the atrocities of your side and focus on the faults of the other. The list is pretty long, no matter which side you choose. To be fair, each party has some good concepts too, but unfortunately, the temptation to abuse Federal power seems to pervade.

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    Posted: 27 November 2009 02:01 PM #38

    mbeauch - 27 November 2009 03:41 AM
    firestorm - 26 November 2009 03:53 AM
    MacCube - 26 November 2009 03:11 AM

    The liberal media spin has started. Soon the mindless zombie foot solders will fall into lockstep for their masters, repeating all of the well worn liberal catch phrases in an attempt to hide what is true. Sadly, all very predictable.

    :apple:

    Sadly, you are the one that is predictable.  Virtually every sentence you wrote could have been lifted from the right-wing Republican playbook.  This would not be so bad, except that these are the folks who led us into a needless war AND almost single-handedly wrecked the economy with their hatred of government regulation; a legacy that goes back to Reagan.  You really should try reading or watching something other than the right-wing media, because you are sounding like the drones who repeat the same phrases over and over like zombies.

    The only value of your post is that you have shown that you are ignorant beyond comprehension. There is no substance to your post, just mindless diatribes created to cause unrest in this forum. You have made 42 post (mostly useless) and after taking the time to read them I find myself replying to an internet troll. When people disagree with you you attack them personally. With your comment about “right-wingers” believing that the Earth is only 6000 years old, you have shown that you are the one who is uninformed, unintelligent, and ignorant. I applaud you for not being ashamed of being an atheist, I just hope you keep that conviction under Muslim rule. LOL

    I stand behind every word I said.  If I don’t go along with the prevalent zeitgeist here of reduced regulation—which even Ayn Rand acolyte Alan Greenspan has admitted was a mistake—then I am accused of being a troll.  I don’t really care what you think, but I will never go along with the sheep just because everyone else here takes that tack.  If DantheMason or MacCube or anyone else wants to continue to make outrageous political statements in this forum, I WILL respond.  You did not make a single rational point in your diatribe against me.

         
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    Posted: 27 November 2009 10:22 PM #39

    stevereel - 27 November 2009 04:02 PM

    Totally agree with BillH.

    Both major US parties are corrupt and self-serving. For most people, picking “sides” simply means that you ignore the atrocities of your side and focus on the faults of the other. The list is pretty long, no matter which side you choose. To be fair, each party has some good concepts too, but unfortunately, the temptation to abuse Federal power seems to pervade.

    Stevereel, I must in some ways agree. The debate is not between Democrat and Republican, but between Liberalism and Conservatism. There was once a time when the conservative ideology was represented by the republican party. But somewhere along the way, politicians being what they are, fell prey to their own desire for power. That is why there should be a limit to their time in office. Few can resist the sirens-call of being at the fore-front. One must look, not at the party, but at the ideology. Liberalism or Conservatism. Look at their track records, not at what they each promise but at the results of their legislation. I have done this. Liberalism has failed at each of its promises through-out history. The only thing that Liberalism is successful at is growing government, which is what its true goal is. With the more control the government has over each of us, the less control we have over ourselves. And with the more control the government has, the more power the politician has, and the more each of them want to secure that power. Our Founding Fathers understood this part of human nature all too well and tried to design a government that would represent the people, not its leaders. Right now, our government is what the founders were most fearful of. We are, or could already be, past the tipping point where the government controls every part of the citizens life. Think about it.

     

    :apple:

         
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    Posted: 27 November 2009 10:43 PM #40

    danthemason - 27 November 2009 09:20 AM

    The house of representatives has passed a cap and trade bill. It was a party line vote. The football my friends is our lives and future. And the impetus for this action,  human caused global warming, has been based on a sustained program of lies and distortion predictably leading to fear and guilt. This government has taxed productivity and redistributed the proceeds. Their largest social schemes of medicare and social security are not sustainable with dedicated funds having been spent on other programs of redistribution. They are now “playing on your fears” in order to impose another tax based on energy use. This so they may continue while you serve penance for being so productive under their last scheme. 

    I’m disgusted that they are getting away with it. It’s time to pick a side and get in this game. Being fat, dumb and happy on the sidelines won’t cut it. To all you moderates who won’t dirty your hands with a political stand, open your eyes, engage your brains, because you may not get it yet, but politics is about to change your life.

    And Apple quit the Chamber of Commerce because of opposition to this scheme.

    Dan, you are so right. Too many, including myself, have sat on the sidelines, not wanting to make a decision, not wanting to take sides, not wanting to cause any controversy or maybe offend. Sitting back, watching as our freedoms and liberties are chipped away. The false and empty promises of corrupt politicians whose only real concern is growing their own power and control. Not making a decision is a decision. There are no moderates, only those afraid to take a stand. Believe me, if this nation continues on its present course, you will be forced to decide, only then your choices will not be easy or pleasant.

     

    :apple:

         
  • Posted: 28 November 2009 07:42 AM #41

    There is a commonly advanced position by those not participating in the political process. In a nutshell since each party does things with which there is an argument, or worse a moral conflict, the only logical response by the non participant is to recoil from these repugnant organizations. 

    With this behavior the individual places himself on the sidelines waiting for the perfect political party and platform to present themselves.

    Ain’t gonna happen.

    Within each party are groups of like minded individuals who congregate in order to improve their influence. There are left wing and right wing elements within each party. There are reform elements in each party.

    To remain on the sidelines and throw stones at the system is intellectually lazy. However it does provide the political hermit an unending supply of topics to vent his frustrations. Sort of like porn on the internet….. You can finish the analogy.

    Now Apple finds itself out of the C of C. With which group will the worlds foremost technology company now ally themselves.

         
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    Posted: 28 November 2009 09:44 AM #42

    I can’t speak for “the individual”, but I can speak for myself. I’m very active in politics, but I believe in voting for the person and his/her record, not their party affiliation.

    By “Taking sides” you are just letting the political party choose for you. Both parties are corrupt. As an oversimplification… Democrats believe they know how to spend your money better than you do, Republicans believe they should control your rights and freedoms (i.e. patriot act).

    Think for yourself.

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    Posted: 28 November 2009 12:20 PM #43

    firestorm - 27 November 2009 06:01 PM

    If DantheMason or MacCube or anyone else wants to continue to make outrageous political statements in this forum, I WILL respond.  You did not make a single rational point in your diatribe against me.

    This statement of yours is rich.  Are you consciously aware that every post you make appears to stir the pot like a little firebrand? I’ve always thought that your user name was selected with the express purpose so as to provide a hint that your point is to polarize and divide?which is fine if you want to be as much fun as a ten-year-old who runs out amid a dinner party to kick everybody in the shin. Notwithstanding, I believe that polarizing views should be marginalized in favor for the pragmatism of those who concern themselves with solving problems rather than assigning blame.

    FWIW, my political opinion is to continue to reward the mistakes and ineptitude of both parties by voting “not incumbent.”

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    Posted: 28 November 2009 08:32 PM #44

    Eric Landstrom - 28 November 2009 04:20 PM

    ... I believe that polarizing views should be marginalized in favor for the pragmatism of those who concern themselves with solving problems rather than assigning blame…

    Now that’s rich! The climate denialists aren’t offering any SOLUTIONS to this problem other than to do more of the same. Pollute, burn more fossil fuels (drill, baby, drill!), etc. It’s the same for healthcare problems, Wall Street, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Yes, Firestorm will never win that battle because they’re arguing with people that will never change their mind regardless of how many facts you drop on their heads. Nasa’s warming trend data, photographic proof of glaciers disappearing, acidity of oceans changing overnight, CO2 levels rapidly rising, etc. It’s doesn’t matter, because to them, it’s all part of a “natural cycle” that’s been taking place for thousands of year - conveniently choosing to ignore that these changes are taking place at such a rapid place that even a 10 year old could ascertain that we’ve got a serious problem on our hands and maintaining the status quo is not a solution.

    What I find perplexing is that these same folks look at little squiggly lines all day long to time their trades and pour through spreadsheets for the fundamental facts, yet the will ignore data and trend lines (and photos) when it comes to climate change.

    BTW, voting “not incumbent” is an overly simplistic solution for sure. Until we fix the influence of $$$$ in politics, we’ll make very little progress. To get elected, most people have to have enormous sums of money behind them, whether it be family wealth or through corporate donations (“not incumbents” included).

    AFB’s a great place when we stick to true investing topics but we constantly have “drive by shootings” by our friends on the right that do nothing but stir the pot. You shouldn’t expect folks like Firestorm to ignore it.

         
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    Posted: 28 November 2009 08:59 PM #45

    danthemason - 25 November 2009 08:07 PM

    It could be said of the students supporting Apples stance that they may have been schooled in environmental studies with a bias towards human culpability.

    Yes, and it could be said that they are Martians with as little regard for either the truth or reality.

    Yet more troubling is that you assume that anyone who disagrees with you is either lying or is misled.

    I do have one student in my moral reasoning class who responds with a loud “bullshit” to any mention of human impact on climate destabilization. He also refuses to read any scientific studies on the matter, or even pay attention to the trail of debris, noxious gases, and uncovered societal costs that his lifestyle entails. That’s ok. There are 49 other people in the room who are intelligent enough to consider that there may be a problem with the way they live. The future belongs to them.

    There are some who believe that we should force people like that fellow to “toe the line” but I don’t think that will ever work ? there’s not enough intelligence to work with there. Hopefully though, sooner or later, everyone will turn their backs on him and he’ll either change his dogmatic position or die a lonely death. It’s his challenge to learn or not. Hopefully he won’t have time to breed. After all, he’s just another lemon socialist looking to foist off every cost incurred by his lifestyle on the public, while he takes advantage of their beneficence (in the form of a healthy environment and a secure society). 

    The fact that Apple has taken a stance says a lot about the virtue of the corporation. Remember, although it is unheard of today, the corporate charter is a grant, not a right, and at some point society might decide that it’s future is enough of a challenge that it doesn’t need freeloaders and yellow socialists crying about their right to infringe on the rest of us and might start shutting down some of these corporations. I know it is a fantasy, but I can live in a fantasy just as much as you Dan.

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