I was just reading another story over on Maccentral.com about a new IT guy for a school system that is changing the whole place over to PCs only.
I wish I could say that it was the first… or the last.
But it serves to illustrate a point that I have been aware of for quite some time. Apple doesn’t have a program for certifying Macintosh admins. The most credible way for someone to know that you have Mac skills is a resume.

Until IT managers have the option of Mac training as well as Microsoft (MCSE), we will continue to see schools and businesses drop the Mac.
I believe that Apple should not only have the certification and instruction (probably web based) program available but make it free or almost free to encourage current IT staff to learn about the Mac.

Thoughts, questions?

-Dan

Hey, Dan, I know that you wrote: 

Apple doesn’t have a program for certifying Macintosh admins.

  But you, also, asked for thoughts.  Here are a couple.

George

“There are strange things done in the midnight sun….  Robert W. Service

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dummy on 2001-08-17 11:51 ]</font>

I am aware of both of those sites but neither really applies.
One is a training site for Macintosh hardware repair and the other is really just an Apple spotlight on what selected people are doing with Macs.
Neither has much to do with certifying Macintosh IT managers.

-Dan

I believe that Apple should not only have the certification and instruction (probably web based) program available but make it free or almost free to encourage current IT staff to learn about the Mac.

That’s odd; it’s done here already.
http://training.apple.com.au
They’re specifically designed for already-employed IT staff.  Most employers will pay the fee for you.

Server Engineer qualifies you for (you guessed it) Apple network administration in the Asia Pacific region.  The others just cover your butt for most other service issues when working for an AppleCentre.

I’m taking the SelfTrak program, which means I take the tests on their own without attending a course.  Each unit only costs $100 that way.  If you’ve ever installed an OS on your own computer (check) and troubleshot your own problems (check) you should be just fine for the first couple of levels.

_________________
Not happy Jan!!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raena on 2001-08-18 21:18 ]</font>

I stand (well sit actually) corrected.
I still hold the view that Apple should make the instructional courses affordable by offering web courses. $2,000 is a bit steep considering the state of acceptance of Apple products in the business world.
-Dan

You know, part of the very allure of the MSCE program is that it is absurdly hard and very expensive.  The reasoning seems to go that it is hard and expensive, so it must be good, right?

I think the same argument can be applied to Apple too. If it is too cheap, it surely must not be worth anything, right?

Mind you, I don’t want to pay that much any more than you, but I think my above points have merit.

I know being MCSE certified is very important in the IT world, but is that really necessary on the Mac?  The effort and training required to admin Intel-based computer systems is much greater than that required for doing the same on the Mac platform.

Those of you who read my editorial on PCs and Macs in my local school district, you would see just one example of how much easier it is for us as a district to support our Macs.  Our Mac support specialists (including myself) have no formal training whatsoever.  We all learn from each other and have a vast knowledge of troubleshooting thanks to love of the platform, experience, and two wonderful Mac sites: MacInTouch and MacFixIt.  For us, training is not necessary for the job we do, but in a sense that is the problem many districts are having.

The school board here in Lincoln, NE, has several members who would take any steps possible to remove all Macs from our district.  We have “defense plans” already thought out for when that day comes.  We’ve invested way too much in our machines (over 5000 Macs in secondary schools and over 3000 in elementary schools) to have it all tossed away by those who want our schools to teach the “correct” and “useful” platform—MS Windows.  I’ve heard a board member say several times that “what we really need is a [Microsoft] certified group of technicians.”

So what can be done about this?  I’m not very aware of Apple’s current training programs, but perhaps Apple (or some third party group) should create a simple test that individuals can take online (either for free or a small $10 or $15 fee) to earn their Mac certification.

Any thoughts?

Brad

No offense to any MCSE’s out there intended, but I have to ask.

Does having an MCSE really make you that much more knowledgeable when it comes to ‘All Things SysAdmin’? I mean, in my circle of friends having your MCSE is kind of a joke - on par with those ‘Study for a better career’ ads you see on matchbooks. I know a couple of people who were taking Computer Science and Electrical Engineering degrees and had an MCSE as a fallback plan in case they flunked out.

Perhaps it’s a symptom of my being inside a university atmosphere (and all the egotism that sometimes goes with it) but whenever I hear people talk about MCSE’s I always am left with the impression that people with their MCSE are more akin to drone workers than actual Sysadmin types - great at doing basic mindless Windows trouleshooting but not so great at actual problem solving, and further instilled with a fanatic-like belief that Windows is the be-all-and-end-all of perfect-operating-system-bliss and that the Microsoft-way is the only-and-best-way of solving any computer related problem. (the fanatic bit isn’t all the different from some Mac people I’ve observed, but I digress)

As a result, MCSE’s are (in my circle) routinely the target of much snickering and joke making - all of which casts the entire program in a not entirely flattering light.

[disclaimer]

Again, I do not intend to offend any MCSE’s out there. I am simply asking whether my impressions of the MCSE program are somewhat accurate or if they are simply the byproduct of my having a somehow unfairly biased group of associates. I personally know close to nothing about the program (having never taken it) and am asking from a position of complete ignorance - which is why I am asking. Please do not flame me or take great offence from my comments or categorize me in any way because I am not intending to make any statements about the quality of the MCSE program or the people who take the MCSE program, I am simply reiterating the impressions that have been made upon me through conversations and catching offhand remarks. If I wanted to slam the MCSE program I would just post anonymously and be done with it.

[/disclaimer]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Morto on 2001-08-19 16:02 ]</font>

I looked up under <!—BBCode u1 Start—>http://www.apple.com/nl/training” TARGET=“_blank”] http://www.apple.com/nl/training[/url]<!—BBCode u1 End—>. And they had links to a few companies that offer certain Mac courses. The only drawback is the price. I can’t afford $1100 for a 3 day course on OS X. And there is the culprit. The courses are too expensive for the person who’s interested. Hell I get $500 a month, how can they expect me to be able to pay for such courses.

Why, the same way MCSE trainers expect you to pay out the nose for their little deal.  They aren’t cheap *at all*, especially if you’re using a group-training centre.  You pay for a lecturer/instructor, materials, use of equipment, blah de blah…

And if you think about it, this isn’t like some diddly little course where you can get away with paying a couple of hundred; MCSE can often be the foundation of one’s career.

photodan: Investigating the training.apple.com.au link I provided eventually leads you to a web-delivered training course option as well. Neato.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raena on 2001-08-20 08:46 ]</font>

On 2001-08-19 15:59, Morto wrote:
No offense to any MCSE’s out there intended, but I have to ask.

Does having an MCSE really make you that much more knowledgeable when it comes to ‘All Things SysAdmin’? I mean, in my circle of friends having your MCSE is kind of a joke - on par with those ‘Study for a better career’ ads you see on matchbooks. I know a couple of people who were taking Computer Science and Electrical Engineering degrees and had an MCSE as a fallback plan in case they flunked out.

I also intend no offense, because I am sure that there are good people out there with MCSEs (I’ve met one), but most see the MCSE as a way to start up the IT ladder and a way out of a horrible, depressing, low-paying job like tech support, retail, or teaching.

Here at can {COMPANY NAME REMOVED} we have a rule of thumb: if things are messed up enough that you have to call one of the MCSE technicians, then the problem is probably beyond the MCSE. The general consensus among the programmers (and remember that I work with Unix people) is that we probably know more about troubleshooting and problem solving, by our years of C(++)/Perl/Java/shell/SQL/etc debugging, and more about how OSes work, by our experience and our installing Linux/BSD on our home machines, than the MCSEs do/can. Of course, {COMPANY NAME REMOVED} being {COMPANY NAME REMOVED} there is probably a horrendous amount of bureaucracy and paperwork keeping them from actually doing their job (ie getting the hands-on experience) that can’t be helping.

I did talk to one guy who kept PCs and their networks together for years before he had to get his MCSE paper. (You know bureaucrats, they only know useless metrics, not what works.) He said that the testing was done at the end of each day, when the info was still fresh, and that as soon as the day was over, most of the attendees probably forgot everything they ‘learned’. Most of the people there, he said, knew nothing about security, problem solving, and a lot of basics that you want in an admin, mechanic, doctor, barber, etc.

Now again, I know there are exceptions to this whole MCSE mess, but like finding someone competent in his/her job, these people are few and far between. Whenever the sheep in management want the sheep in the flock to all go the same way, it seems that the management sheep think that there is a quick fix, or indeed any fix, to making a sheep into something other than a sheep.

Of course, I am deeply cynical, but no one is born a cynic.